Backdoor CCJ - Parking Eye/CPP PAPLOC - PCN sent to V5C Scottish address - Court papers served to ex's address england!!

[tutty1]

Hi All,

I have posted this issue on National Consumer Service and it seems to have offered up different advice to what I believed so thought it may be worth posting here as well to get some thoughts from the legal minds etc.

Below is a copy of what I posted on National Consumer Service:

Hi All,

This is a bit of a weird one - really looking for some guidance as how to address the problem.

My young daughter is still living with us in Scotland - car is registered here.
She received a (NTK) PCN for allegedly being in a car park in England for 8 minutes.

Apparently there was a sign that said no charges for the first 10 mins but has subsequently been removed - this has been confirmed by a few other people.
The photos are just 2 black squares with a number plate - can't even see the car.

The PCN was sent to our address in Scotland - ignored and just waited to see if they would take it any further but didn't hear anything............or so we thought.
Last week she found out she had been served with a CCJ.

She rang the court and the papers had been served to her ex-boyfriends house (in England) as they said that was her current address (which it wasn't).

Can they actually serve them at a completely different address to the original PCN even though the car is not registered there?
How can you defend when you don't receive the papers - these surely haven't been served correctly?
Just need some advice to take it further.

Many Thanks.

Quick background & details.

Daughter got pregnant & ended up splitting with boyfriend in Oct '23 (They'd been together for a couple of years but not seen him since) - baby born 6th Feb '24
He's obviously heard about the baby and out of the blue yesterday morning, bag left outside our house with some baby stuff from his house and some mail for daughter - that's how we have found out about it.

Initially sent PCN from CPP - date of event 11/09/23 - date issued 15/09/23 - £100 charge
Reminder sent from CPP on 19/10/23
Both sent to our address in Scotland.
Letter sent to boyfriends address in England on 24/10/23 from Parkingeye to say they have received this address from a credit reference agency and not the DVLA - charge £60
Letter to England address dated 03/11/23 - Letter Before Claim from CPP
Letter to England address dated 22/11/23 - Letter Before Claim from CPP
Claimform to England address issued on 08/01/24 Northampton - Claimant Parkingeye
Judgement for claimant (in default) - dated 6th Feb......ironically the day the baby was born.

V5C Docs - registered here in Scotland
Drivers License - Scottish address
Car Insurance - Scottish address.

So no idea really - all her other post comes here i.e bank statements etc.

I feel responsible because I assumed that because we live in Scotland it was safe to ignore until LOC but the team on National Consumer Service say we should have contacted them immediately and said no keeper liability in Scotland - is this because the offence was in England?

it seems that they have made some tenuous link to his English address and got in through the backdoor - She never lived there (always been resident here) but obviously had stayed there at various times, just like he had here.

Her credit report doesn't list the English address so not much to go on tbh.

We now have no real option but to pay it and ask that it doesn't appear on the register.

I know that it is a very unique set of circumstances but it may serve as a point of reference to anyone that finds themselves in a similar situation.

Any thoughts would be interesting to read for my own peace of mind.

Just parasites one and all these firms!

T.

 

 

2023-09-11 CPP PCN 2023-09-11.pdf

[FTMDave]

What is the date of the CCJ please?

Edit - just seen 6 February, sorry.

Edited February 10 by FTMDave
Extra info added

[tutty1]

No idea why it changed to national consumer service when I posted........try again, it was fighback forum.National Consumer Service where I posted originally.

[FTMDave]

We call these "Backdoor CCJs" and they're easy to get set aside - as you said

51 minutes ago, tutty1 said:

How can you defend when you don't receive the papers - these surely haven't been served correctly?

The first thing would be to approach Parking Eye, tell them they served papers to the wrong address, and in the wrong jurisdiction, and you are going for set aside - at their expense.  If they play ball go for a set aside by consent without a hearing which will cost £108 and ask the court to make PE pay it.

If PE refuse, then go for set aside with a hearing which costs £275 - and ask the judge to make PE pay it.

This is a painless process, a few bits of paperwork to prepare and 15 minutes in front of a judge.

Alternatively your daughter can give in, and if she decides to do that then it's important she pays the CCJ within a month.

Surely approaching PE should be done though, nothing ventured ...

 

Edited February 10 by FTMDave
Typo

[FTMDave]

Can you clarify who CPP are please?  I'm beginning to suspect she might have two of these things.

Can you also please follow our upload guide and post the documentation here?  No-one is going to go onto an external site and trawl through ten million cookie options.

[tutty1]

Hi,

 

Many thanks for the reply.

Other site said not much chance of getting it set aside & to just pay it as it could result in a total of £500 to pay if not successful.

They didn't even mention contacting ParkingEye and saying intend to so that's interesting. Can I act on her behalf because she's not really up for it at present with just having the baby etc?

The CPP thing baffled me as well because the pcn & reminders that came to Scotland had CPP on but the ones sent to England had ParkingEye on but the same incident. The court papers however actually say ParkingEye trading as CPP.

Apologies - I just copied & pasted my submission from the other site.........they wanted the pix hosted externally.

Have attached a pdf.

 

Thanks.

T.

2023-09-11 CPP PCN 2023-09-11.pdf

[FTMDave]

Thank you for getting back to us so quickly.  Thanks for explaining about CPP - I'd never seen PE use that trading name before.

It's true that forking out £275 which you might never see again to fight a judgement of, what, £300?, doesn't make much sense.

It's worth going for a set aside by consent though.  If it fails miserably, you won't have lost anything.

No, you can't do legal stuff on behalf of your daughter.  She is the one being sued.  That said, there's no reason why you can't prepare all the paperwork for her then to e-mail or sign off.

PE try to hide their e-mail address but we know that this works  info@parkingeye.co.uk

How about -

Dear Parking Eye,

Re: PCN no.XXXXX, Claim form no.XXXXX

I refer to our above-mentioned dispute regarding your invoice for staying eight minutes in a car park.

As you know, I am the registered keeper of vehicle XXXXX and my address is XXXXX, Scotland.  You will have obtained this information from the DVLA.

I have discovered that you have obtained a County Court Judgement against me by default.  This is because you had the court papers sent to XXXXX, England.  I have never lived at that address.  I have never lived in England.  I have always resided at my Scottish address.

In exactly a week's time I will therefore apply to the court to set aside judgement and will request that the court order costs against Parking Eye as you, either deliberately or through negligence, had the court papers sent to an incorrect address.

I would suggest it would be beneficial to both parties to keep costs to a minimum and for you therefore to consent to set aside. 

I will wait for one week for your positive response.  If it does not arrive then I will apply for set aside and inform the judge that you not only sent the court papers to the wrong address but also declined to consent to set aside, and therefore I would apply for full costs against Parking Eye.

Yours, XXXXX

[tutty1]

That's brilliant! Thanks for taking the time to do that for me - really appreciate it.

Got to be worth a shot hasn't it - if they say no she's not in any worse a position than now is she.

T.

[dx100uk]

pdf's sorted

thread title updated.

naughty naughty by PE here .

this could get you a bit of compo too in court if they dont consent. damage to credit file.

and an 8min stay so within permitted grace period i expect, so never should have issued the speculative invoice in the first place.

i've removed the word fine from your 1st post.. a private parking company can never FINE anyone!!

dx

 

[lookinforinfo]

The original PCN is not compliant with the Protction of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4 Section 9 [2][e]. Ther the PCN must state that CPP does not name of the driver and should ask [invite in the Act] the keeper to pay the charge or provide the name and address of the driver. Your PCN does not ask your daughter to pay the PCN.

What that means is that the charge cannot be trabsferred from the driver to the keeper -only the driver is now responsible. Two things arise from that. The first is that Courts do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person and it will be difficulr for CPP  since there are many people who are legally able to drive your daughters car and they will need some proof that she was driving to saisfy the Court.

Secodly, quite often when completing the Court Claim form the parking companies often stipulat that they are pursuing the keeper . As the keeper is not liable your case it could be another nail in their coffin.

[tutty1]

Thanks to both DX (as usual) and lookinforinfo for the added advice.

Are you both in agreement with FTMDave about sending the email to ParkingEye and is it worth adding any of the extra info that lookinforinfo has mentioned?

I'm ready to send this evening and give them next week to respond.

T.

[lookinforinfo]

I would add that the PCN is not compliant which means that your daughter as keeper should not have been pursued. And if you know that CPP was claiming your daughter was mentioned as the keeper on their Court claim then that is more likely that they will consent to your request.

[tutty1]

Hi All,

Further on from the recent posts I have found a further discovery.............FTMDave was correct there is more than 1.
My mistake, I thought the loc and the pcn were for the same offence but on closer inspection the default judgement is for an earlier offence.
I've attached the docs - surely we would have received the PCN at our address as it was before the supposed offence on 11th Sept which came to us?
Now, the strange thing is that there has never been anything sent to us in Scotland for this PCN that has the court claim for an offence dated 22nd Aug - we meticulously keep everything - only ever received the PCN for 1tth Sept.
There is also nothing in the post from the Ex's address bar the loc - I've been to see him and he swears that he has passed on everything in my daughters name and I have no reason not to believe him - in total 4 letters.
The loc's also state that the original PCN's were attached but they weren't as they would have shown our Scottish address on and we would now have a copy of the missing PCN for the 22nd Aug offence.
My daughter cannot remember the details from the 22nd Aug but she has said that it is a pay as you leave car park so cannot understand what is going on - she said that for the 8 mins one when she left the car park it said nothing to pay.
We live a fair way away from the car park in question so I have asked a friend to go and take some photos just to confirm - failing that we are going to make the journey at the weekend to see for ourselves as this may be added info for the request to ParkingEye?
My other concern is that they may have raised another court claim by now for the 11th Sept (8 mins) incident, so how do we check if we have not received any papers?

Many thanks to all who are helping.

T.

PCNandClaim.pdf

[FTMDave]

This is going to take a moment to get our heads round!

Firstly, did you send the e-mail we drafted to PE on Sunday?

Secondly, is this right? -

PCN 1
"Offence" - 22 Aug
PCN date - 28 Aug
At CCJ stage

PCN 2
"Offence" - 11 Sep
PCN date - 15 Sep
At Letter of Claim stage.

 

[tutty1]

Hi,

Yes, that is correct as you stated above. Not sent any email yet after realizing the difference in dates.

Just worried that even though no court papers been received at either address doesn't fill me with a great deal of confidence that they haven't been filed and we receive another default.

We have nothing for the first offence except for LOC and court papers all sent to English address.

2nd offence we have PCN at Scottish address and LOC at English address - daughter is adamant that when she went to machine & put reg in it stated 'no charge'.

Really appreciate the help.

T.

[FTMDave]

Right, she needs to get a snotty letter off to PE to (a) hammer home the address issue and (b) make it clear to them she'd be big trouble if they did do court.

It's also important that the ex opens any mail for her in case there are court papers.  You seem on good terms with him.  if he had done this with earlier mail we wouldn't be in this mess.  That's not a criticism BTW, if mail for an ex-girlfriend turned up at mine I would respect her privacy and wouldn't open it, but this is a an emergency!

This is regarding the second, 8-minute stay PCN.  Send it by e-mail.

Dear Parking Eye,

Re: PCN no.XXXX

cheers for your Letter of Claim.  I rolled around on the floor in laughter at the thought that you actually reckoned I'd take that tripe seriously and cough up!

Firstly let's be clear about one thing.  You have a habit of sending correspondence to me to a completely fictitious address in England where I don't live.  Indeed I've never lived in England.  My address is XXXXX, Scotland.  It should have been easy for even thickos like yourselves to note my address, as it's the same address the DVLA sent you.  See - easy peasy!

If you issue a county court claim against me at an address you know full well I have never resided at you will be hit with so many costs you will have to remortgage your office.

Now , the PCN.  C'mon, go and look up Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act and Section 13 of your own ATA Code of Practice.

You can either drop this foolishness now or get a hell of a hammering in court.  Either would suit me.  I have my request to the judge for an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g) all prepared, and have already decided to spend the dosh on a nice spring break, while all the time laughing at your expense.

I look forward to your deafening silence.

Yours, XXXXX

[FTMDave]

It is absolutely essential that the mail about the CCJ set aside, that should have gone off on Sunday, is sent today.  Maybe leave a couple of hours between the two mails.  Make sure the PCN number and claim form number are right.  The clock is ticking towards the date she will either have to pay or the CCJ will knacker her credit file for six years.

[FTMDave]

While you're having an e-mail day, leave another couple of hours and then send a third mail, with a SAR.

Stick in some I.D. otherwise they will use lack of I.D. as an excuse not to cooperate.

That will force them to send al the missing correspondence.

[tutty1]

Many thanks FTMDave for the quick response.........I gather from your tone of email you hold these firms in high disregard?

First email has been sent and received the generic, this inbox is not monitored & is for general enquiries only etc.etc.

Is there any way of finding out if they have applied for a ccj on the 2nd one without any paperwork?

Thanks.

T.

[FTMDave]

I see  [email protected]  works as well.

https://www.parkingeye.co.uk/motorist/knowledge-hub/police-enquiries/

Belt & braces, send all three mails there are well.

I know it's a pain in the backside doing all this, but it'll massively safeguard your daughter.

Yes, at CAG we have great admiration for these companies

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

The only comment I would make on the letter to PE is that the mistake they made is Schedule 4 Section 9 not 13 which is related to hirers. Otherwise great letter  which you would have thought would have the correct effect.  However it is a parking company we are dealing with where brains take second place to greed.

[tutty1]

2 of the 3 emails sent now to both email addresses - the police one came back with 'Any emails relating to a Parking Charge Notice will not be considered via this email address'.

Just about to do SAR request - do I need to send photo ID - i.e a scan of her drivers license?

Many thanks for all the help & guidance.

T.

[Nicky Boy]

No, a copy of her council tax bill will do.

[FTMDave]

Sorry for posting in dribs & drabs, but I'm at work.

Who cares what their automatic mails say, they've been informed and that is all a court would be interested in.

I see NB has explained the I.D. issue.

Back to the grind for the last hour and a half ...

 

[tutty1]

Hi,

 

She hasn't got a council tax bill as she lives with us - What about Car Insurance docs or something to do with the bank (but not a statement)?

She hasn't got much official living at home.

Thanks.

T.