Management company changed locks

[king12345]

Hi guys,

my brother owns a flat in a tower block and there's a storage shed on the ground floor which is part of the property and marked on deeds as part of it.

 

The management company changed the lock to this storage area and refused to give owners the key.

 

Today I managed to speak to someone at MC (can't let my brother handle this because he wanted to go to MC and beat everyone up).

 

She claimed that after the last elf & safety () report they were advised to "restrict access to storage area".

This is exactly what it says in the report.

They have conveniently interpreted this with: "let's change the lock so nobody can get in"

 

Apparently we can get access mon-Fri between 9am and 4pm if we contact the care taker who looks after this very large estate, so it would take him a while if he's doing something.

 

My brother works 9-5 mon-Fri, so effectively they have blocked his access.

 

They have strongly refused to issue a key and when I accused them of trying to gain ownership of the storage units they went on the defensive.

Apparently lots of tenants complained but nobody was successful in getting anything out of them.

 

I spoke to the legal dpt at the union, they're not experts in lease disputes, but they said that it's a civil tort and as such they would only respond to a court order.

My brother cancelled the payment direct debit, called them later today and gave them a large portion of abuse calling them criminals, mafia associates, bandits and so on.

He repeated this several times until he spoke to a manager who burst into tears while my brother was laughing at her.

Told him not to do it, but he's a hot headed madcap, so I thought better over the phone than in person, otherwise someone would have ended up in a&e.

He's a nice guy but he hates injustice and reacts very badly to it.

 

He worked very hard to pay off this flat so to have a more comfortable life in later years, that's why he's livid.

Any advice on what to do to get permanent access to the storage unit without going to court?

[AndyOrch]

Thread moved to the appropriate forum.....please continue topost here to your thread.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[stu007]

Hi

 

Your brother owns a flat in a towerblock that is leasehold could you clarify?

 

What exactly does the lease say about the storage shed?

 

The storage shed you refer to is your brother the only one with access or are there other storage sheds within that area?

 

Are the storage shed refered to within/part of the tower block?

 

Has the MC explained what the H&S issue was that made them take this action and was notice given?

 

As this is a tower block and if the storage shed is within/part of the tower block this is a H&S & Fire Risk to the tower block

 

1. Open access to the area is a risk to the tower block. (theft, fire, etc) thus a risk to those within the tower block.

 

2. The MC is unaware if those with storage sheds are storing flammable material within them thus a risk to those within the tower block.

[king12345]

Hi

 

Your brother owns a flat in a towerblock that is leasehold could you clarify?

 

What exactly does the lease say about the storage shed?

 

The storage shed you refer to is your brother the only one with access or are there other storage sheds within that area?

 

Are the storage shed refered to within/part of the tower block?

 

Has the MC explained what the H&S issue was that made them take this action and was notice given?

 

As this is a tower block and if the storage shed is within/part of the tower block this is a H&S & Fire Risk to the tower block

 

1. Open access to the area is a risk to the tower block. (theft, fire, etc) thus a risk to those within the tower block.

 

2. The MC is unaware if those with storage sheds are storing flammable material within them thus a risk to those within the tower block.

 

Hi, yes, the flat is in a tower block on lease and the sheds are on the ground floor of the same building.

All flats have a storage shed and the MC changed the lock on the door leading to the shed area where all sheds are.

The lease says that the shed is part of the property, nothing more.

The MC said that the h&s report says: "access to the shed area should be restricted" and that's it.

They interpreted this in their favour by blocking access to lawful owners and tenants.

No notice given, they just changed the locks.

The area was not open, there was a door there which had a different lock and all tenants and owners had a key to it as it should be.

That door was always locked because it had a very strong magnetic door shutter, my brother said that he never found that door open.

 

To answer your last two questions:

1. There's never been open access to the storage area, there was the same door there before and they just changed the lock

2. They wouldn't know what people are storing there anyway because each shad has it's own locked door, so even now that they have blocked access anyone could store flammables in there.

 

I think the reason they deliberately misinterpreted the h&s report is that many sheds are unused (lots of old people live in the block) and they though that in a few years they could claim legal ownership.

I wouldn't be surprised if they fitted locks on all the unused sheds and made a formal record of it so to prove in a few years that they can take legal ownership.

As far as I'm aware, is one uses a property for a number of years unchallenged, he becomes the legal owner of it, or this just applies to land?

[sgtbush]

If the lease states you have use of your storage shed its yours to use, 24/7.

Health and safety may say a restriction may be appropriate, but they mean security, not times of access. Every lease holder should have a key.

If they don't they are denying access to a part of your leased property and therefore in breach of the lease.

A letter before action is required from you to them.

[king12345]

Ok, they seem to have capitulated after I caught them blatantly lieing.

As usual I recorded all calls and the same person changed her story three times.

I asked for documents and names of people who authorised a breach of the lease.

She asked why I needed names and I said that I was going to sue the individuals alongside the company so to pierce the corporate veil and make them pay costs instead of using money that we pay into the MC.

A couple of hours after this conversation I received an email with a large apology and promise that my brother will get the keys on Monday.

Still going ahead with the complaints because they shouldn't lie.

[mariner51]

I suggest the H&S report, more likely Fire Safety report was instigated post-Grenfall Tower fire; it was found ind Leaseholders were not limited to what could be stored in the sheds, eg paint, solvents, compressed gas bottles. so someone decided to restrict shed access without ref to Legal Dept. Hardly lying IMO.

[king12345]

I suggest the H&S report, more likely Fire Safety report was instigated post-Grenfall Tower fire; it was found ind Leaseholders were not limited to what could be stored in the sheds, eg paint, solvents, compressed gas bottles. so someone decided to restrict shed access without ref to Legal Dept. Hardly lying IMO.

 

More details:

There was no inspection done after the grenfell tragedy.

There was nothing issued as advice by anyone, that's their lie.

The same woman who insisted in saying that their h&s contractor had advised "to restrict access to the storage area" and than changed her story to "the fire brigate ordered that the storage area was secured immediately" (remember that it was already secured, they just changed the locks), sent an email last night apologising for misinforming me.

She admitted that the last fire safety report was done in February, before the grenfell, and nothing was mentioned about the storage area.

In other words, I was right suspecting that they want to gain ownerships of the storage units.

This to me sounds like a fraud.

Whether the police would be interested is very unlikely, but I will pay a visit to my local station on Monday.

In the mean time I will have to get this manager sacked as she blatantly lied to me and I have everything recorded.

She also admitted of "misinforming" me in her last email.

I don't feel sorry for her for being a corporate slave and do what the bosses say.

I told her at the beginning that she couldn't mug me off but she persisted in lieing, even though I told her that she would have paid the consequences.

I hate injustice, even more when people treat me like a monkey.

They're going down.

Any advice on how to do that in the most brutal way?

[Ethel Street]

In the mean time I will have to get this manager sacked as she blatantly lied to me and I have everything recorded.

She also admitted of "misinforming" me in her last email.

I don't feel sorry for her for being a corporate slave and do what the bosses say.

I told her at the beginning that she couldn't mug me off but she persisted in lieing, even though I told her that she would have paid the consequences.

I hate injustice, even more when people treat me like a monkey.

They're going down.

Any advice on how to do that in the most brutal way?

 

I thought it was your brother who was the hot-headed madcap?

 

My brother cancelled the payment direct debit, called them later today and gave them a large portion of abuse calling them criminals, mafia associates, bandits and so on.

He repeated this several times until he spoke to a manager who burst into tears while my brother was laughing at her.

Told him not to do it, but he's a hot headed madcap, so I thought better over the phone than in person, otherwise someone would have ended up in a&e.

 

There isn't the slightest evidence of fraud so you're right, the police won't be interested.

[king12345]

I thought it was your brother who was the hot-headed madcap?

 

 

 

There isn't the slightest evidence of fraud so you're right, the police won't be interested.

 

I was the one handling this despite my brother's telephone calls which didn't help the cause anyway.

So you think it is ok to take over someone's property referring to non existent health and safety reports?

I shall try the same thing with my neighbour garage and see how long it takes for me to get nicked.

[Ethel Street]

I

I shall try the same thing with my neighbour garage and see how long it takes for me to get nicked.

 

You're the management company for your neighbour's garage are you? If not it isn't the same thing at all.

[king12345]

You're the management company for your neighbour's garage are you? If not it isn't the same thing at all.

So it is ok for a management company to take ownership of someone's property and not ok for me.

Can you explain why?

The act is the same, the only difference is that they had access to the building.

In other words, any estate agent managing a rented property and any management company can take ownership of tenants and landlords property.

I don't think your argument has got any legal basis.

The hard fact is that they deliberately lied to gain something, that's the elementary definition of fraud.

[BazzaS]

The hard fact is that they deliberately lied to gain something, that's the elementary definition of fraud.

 

Paging Mr Ghosh.

 

It isn't "deliberately lying to gain something = fraud" if there is no dishonest intent. Admittedly, examples may be rare, but it is possible.

 

"Mr King12345, of course we haven't organised a surprise birthday party for you!"

That could be a deliberate lie, to gain the element of surprise for you for your party, and it is a lie, but it'd be hard to show dishonesty under Ghosh.

[Ethel Street]

So it is ok for a management company to take ownership of someone's property and not ok for me.

Can you explain why?

The act is the same, the only difference is that they had access to the building.

In other words, any estate agent managing a rented property and any management company can take ownership of tenants and landlords property.

 

The MC haven't taken ownership of your brother's property, not according to your posts. You said that each flat has its own locked storage unit and the MC hadn't entered the individual storage units or taken away the contents. The MC haven't even prevented the residents accessing their storage units. Initially they said they would allow access weekdays 9 - 4. You and other residents complained this was unacceptable, they've taken account of what you said and reverted back to giving residents their own keys. At no point has anyone taken ownership or possession of your brother's property. Problem solved.

 

Your obvious anger and burning desire for revenge "in the most brutal way" against the staff of the MC is likely to end with you either in a police cell or a cardiac intensive care unit. Let it go.

[king12345]

The MC haven't taken ownership of your brother's property, not according to your posts. You said that each flat has its own locked storage unit and the MC hadn't entered the individual storage units or taken away the contents. The MC haven't even prevented the residents accessing their storage units. Initially they said they would allow access weekdays 9 - 4. You and other residents complained this was unacceptable, they've taken account of what you said and reverted back to giving residents their own keys. At no point has anyone taken ownership or possession of your brother's property. Problem solved.

 

Your obvious anger and burning desire for revenge "in the most brutal way" against the staff of the MC is likely to end with you either in a police cell or a cardiac intensive care unit. Let it go.

 

You haven't read my posts carefully.

I said that many storage units are unused and unlocked because they belong to people who don't want to store anything there.

I believe that they want to claim ownership of these units after a number of years if that is still legally possible.

They haven't given all residents the keys, they're going to give my brother a key because we put up a fight and asked names.

The other residents either don't know that the units have been blocked because they don't use them, or they have believed their deliberate lie that this was imposed by some sort of h&s official.

I won't let it go, in fact I will post a leaflet to all residents to let them know that there's no report and it's all a lie.

That's to start with.

[king12345]

Paging Mr Ghosh.

 

It isn't "deliberately lying to gain something = fraud" if there is no dishonest intent. Admittedly, examples may be rare, but it is possible.

 

"Mr King12345, of course we haven't organised a surprise birthday party for you!"

That could be a deliberate lie, to gain the element of surprise for you for your party, and it is a lie, but it'd be hard to show dishonesty under Ghosh.

 

Ok Bazza, legal definition is clearer, but what do YOU think about this?

Why would they tell their staff to tell leaseholders that there's an h&s report to support their actions when this report doesn't exist?

[BazzaS]

Ok Bazza, legal definition is clearer, but what do YOU think about this?

Why would they tell their staff to tell leaseholders that there's an h&s report to support their actions when this report doesn't exist?

 

Because incompetent people confabulate to try to hide the fact they've been caught out.

You don't know that they've "told' the person to lie. Incompetence is more common than malice. I won't say "NEVER ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence", but it is usually a good starting point, rather than leaping to assume malice over incompetence.

 

This MAY all be a "grand plan by the evil bosses", but where is your proof?.

It could be one jobsworth overstepping the mark, and then trying to cover it over using "well, its 'Elf 'n Safety, innit!"

 

BTW, sorry to disappoint, but the 'surprise birthday party' was to give an example. There is no birthday party.

[BazzaS]

You haven't read my posts carefully.

I said that many storage units are unused and unlocked because they belong to people who don't want to store anything there.

I believe that they want to claim ownership of these units after a number of years if that is still legally possible.

They haven't given all residents the keys, they're going to give my brother a key because we put up a fight and asked names.

The other residents either don't know that the units have been blocked because they don't use them, or they have believed their deliberate lie that this was imposed by some sort of h&s official.

I won't let it go, in fact I will post a leaflet to all residents to let them know that there's no report and it's all a lie.

That's to start with.

 

Are the individual units locked?, and locked individually by the MCo.?

Or is the lock on the main door, with access weekdays 9-4........... and individual units locked by the tenant if they wish?.

Given your post, quoted below, it seems it is the latter.

 

Hi, yes, the flat is in a tower block on lease and the sheds are on the ground floor of the same building.

All flats have a storage shed and the MC changed the lock on the door leading to the shed area where all sheds are.

...........

 

No notice given, they just changed the locks.

The area was not open, there was a door there which had a different lock and all tenants and owners had a key to it as it should be.

That door was always locked because it had a very strong magnetic door shutter, my brother said that he never found that door open.

 

To answer your last two questions:

1. There's never been open access to the storage area, there was the same door there before and they just changed the lock

2. They wouldn't know what people are storing there anyway because each shad has it's own locked door, so even now that they have blocked access anyone could store flammables in there.

.............

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they fitted locks on all the unused sheds and made a formal record of it so to prove in a few years that they can take legal ownership.

As far as I'm aware, is one uses a property for a number of years unchallenged, he becomes the legal owner of it, or this just applies to land?

 

They could have fitted locks to the unused sheds and seen who then complained even before this, so that casts doubt on your theory.

Those tenants who don't ask for their own keys still have:

a) the right to lock their own shed, and

b) access via the caretaker,

while those who want their own key to the main door can get them.

So, regarding 'adverse possession', nothing has really changed.

[king12345]

Because incompetent people confabulate to try to hide the fact they've been caught out.

You don't know that they've "told' the person to lie. Incompetence is more common than malice. I won't say "NEVER ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence", but it is usually a good starting point, rather than leaping to assume malice over incompetence.

 

This MAY all be a "grand plan by the evil bosses", but where is your proof?.

It could be one jobsworth overstepping the mark, and then trying to cover it over using "well, its 'Elf 'n Safety, innit!"

 

BTW, sorry to disappoint, but the 'surprise birthday party' was to give an example. There is no birthday party.

 

I suspected that they had been told by high management to lie because I spoke to three different people and all three said exactly the same thing using the same words, it sounded like a rehearsed script.

When I finally spoke to the manager, she said exactly the same things in exactly the same words and that's when I realised.

I started firing questions at her and I cought her lies.

In the second telephone call to her, she had straightened her story, or tried to with help from above, but my insistence in seeing the documents made her confess that she "misinformed" me by mistake.

How is this even possible?

[Ethel Street]

What advice are you seeking on here king12345?

 

Now that you've got full access back the only advice you're still asking for seems to be:

 

[The management company staff] They're going down. Any advice on how to do that in the most brutal way?

 

 

 

Is that still what you are asking? Can you clarify how brutal you want to be? Are we talking just emotional brutality? Harrassment? Physical pain? How far do you want to go?

.

.

.

[king12345]

What advice are you seeking on here king12345?

 

Now that you've got full access back the only advice you're still asking for seems to be:

 

 

 

 

 

Is that still what you are asking? Can you clarify how brutal you want to be? Are we talking just emotional brutality? Harrassment? Physical pain? How far do you want to go?

.

.

.

 

As far as getting some managers sacked and the company under investigation.

My brother wants to wait for the key and then go to the head office and beat up the directors.

I promised him to ruin their life with a smile, so I need to do something or I'll be visiting him at the nick (again).

[colin11]

Wow, What a nice family you are :shock:

[king12345]

Wow, What a nice family you are :shock:

 

Best in the area

Thing is that we always worked hard to achieve what we wanted and never did anything nasty to anyone, so it's only natural that we don't like injustice.

My brother is a very nice guy, everyone loves him, but if you try to screw him over he reacts very badly.

He doesn't believe in complaints, courts, lawyers and authorities, he thinks that if someone tries to harm him for no reason, he needs to take the law into his own hands and that's why he's got in trouble a few times.

Once a stupid crackhead stole his motor and just by chance he saw him in the car the next day.

He jumped in front of the car, got run over, got up, pulled the guy out of the window and battered him.

The poor soul was such in a bad way that the paramedics thought he was the one that had been run over and gone under the wheels.

But believe me, if a stranger asked him for help, he would do it without batting an eyelid.

I'm a bit calmer, had my moments in my youth years, but nothing like him.

I hate injustice with all my heart, especially when people abuse their power, would that be a parking warden hiding behind a tree to up his commissions or a CEO falsifying documents for his own gain.

That really makes me mad and I have no sympathy if these people lose their job, their family, friend, house, etc and end up in the gutters asking for spare change.

At the same time though, I help anyone for no personal gain whatsoever, to the point that sometimes my wife gets upset because I spend too much time doing things for other people.

Overall, yes, we are a nice bunch, just wanted to clarify

[honeybee13]

CAG doesn't condone violence in any circumstances, King. Are you sure you aren't over-reacting to this situation?

 

HB

[king12345]

CAG doesn't condone violence in any circumstances, King. Are you sure you aren't over-reacting to this situation?

 

HB

 

No, I'm actually preventing violent behaviour.

As I said, if I had let my brother deal with this, there would be a dozen people in hospital, a door kicked in and my brother in custody.

I want the MC to pay for their wrongdoings via the correct legal channels, I don't see why anyone should condone their fraud.