Received Court Claim from Builder

[king12345]

My 2 pennies on this as a former professional builder.

He doesn't need to be an architect to draw plans, especially for planning permission; I have done them myself many many times and they were accepted by the planning dpt.

Personally I have always done detailed quotes and sketches for free, hoping to get a contract.

To clarify though, these initial sketches were just that, sketches done by hand to show the customer what would be done, not good for submission for a planning application.

Any builder charging for quotes is taking the Mick imo.

I think he's only chancing it after such long time.

I would reply referring to the plans not being fit for purpose and then let him argue his point in court.

The judge will surely ask why he waited so long to pursue.

[HP Mum]

Thank you king - and especially from a builder's perspective.

 

The form I have been sent is from Northants County Court Business Centre. He is a business; I am not.

Acknowledgement of Service

+

Admission Form N9A.

Defence and Counterclaim Form N9B

 

The form N9A has 2 sides asking for personal details - money/ employment/ dependents etc - If I do not intend to Admit then do I NOT fill in this page??

 

The form N9B Defence/ Counterclaim - is this the one I only fill in?

 

I have not appointed another builder - yet. So do I assume I can't fill in the counterclaim section - yet - for someone else to do the job properly?

If things go well in my life over the next 2 weeks I could.

 

It says 14 days to reply from date of service. 9th issue date. So by when does that mean I need to reply? 23rd? Or is it working days?

 

Then do I have 28 days to file a Defence from the 9th? What date does that make it?

[AndyOrch]

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?419198-You-have-received-a-Claim-What-you-need-to-do.-**UPDATED-2018**(3-Viewing)-nbsp

 

Thread title updated

[HP Mum]

Thanks Andy for the update

 

So - 5 + 14 days = by 27th for Acknowledment / + 14 days = by 10th for Defence

Better get working on my Defence quickly. Time will fly pass I am sure. And I guess - I'd better get other builder quotes for the work he did do (+ what he should have done and didn't) as possible counter-claim??

[AndyOrch]

Yes if you intend counter claiming

[HP Mum]

Just filling in the Acknowledgment of Service form.

 

Can I first - and now - just file the AoS - form N9 SDT ??

 

And then I have the next 14 days to fill out the Defence and Counterclaim form N9B (SDT)?? as per my post #30

Or do I have to file them both on-line at the same time?

 

I think I just have to file the AoS now and can use the next days to compile my defence (and possible counter claim...)

Hope this is correct as I am not ready with my defence notes

 

Am a little bit confused because N9 and N9B were in the same envelope.

[HP Mum]

Also - if the claim was issued out of Northants - do I contest jurisdiction of the court? Or can that wait until they assign a court?

Not quite sure what this means?

[AndyOrch]

Just filling in the Acknowledgment of Service form.

 

Can I first - and now - just file the AoS - form N9 SDT ?? Yes...work from the issuance date...19 days from and including the date to AoS and then a further 14 days to submit your defence...33 days

 

And then I have the next 14 days to fill out the Defence and Counterclaim form N9B (SDT)?? as per my post #30

Or do I have to file them both on-line at the same time? Was the claim issued on line MCOL Northampton ?

 

I think I just have to file the AoS now and can use the next days to compile my defence (and possible counter claim...)

Hope this is correct as I am not ready with my defence notes

 

Am a little bit confused because N9 and N9B were in the same envelope.

N9 is the AoS and N9b is Defence and Counterclaim.

 

Also - if the claim was issued out of Northants - do I contest jurisdiction of the court? Or can that wait until they assign a court?

Not quite sure what this means?

 

No...ignore Jurisdiction...you reside in the UK

 

Andy

[HP Mum]

Yes - claim was issued via mcol Northants

 

Ok - so just filed aos online.

 

Will start working on defence over the w/e. And will look at counterclaim too (ie the cost to get someone else to do a better job that is fit for purpose...)

[HP Mum]

OK - So I need to have my Defence in by tomorrow. Going to work on it today - using all my notes.

Do I need to write every single detail now? Or will there be another step before court where I have to provide all my evidence to corroborate my Defence?

I am really pushed for time and have other very important issues to work on today - so I need to understand how brief I can be now...

[AndyOrch]

Initial defence can be brief...but you must either admit or deny all points plead...anything you do not respond to will be taken as an admittance. You can expand in your witness statement later in the process...assuming they wish to continue with the claim after your initial response.

[HP Mum]

The PoC were 2 sentences from him.

"non-payment of invoice # xxx for services provided in relation to producing drawings. The invoice has been outstanding since x date".

The amount of the invoice was the Claim + the court fee.

 

He didn't elaborate on the services provided nor any itemisation to equal the Claim value in the PoC. Is that normal?

 

My Defence will contest the lack of itemisation and drawings not fit for purpose. His quote was large, he has apportioned this invoice with no clear itemisation how he arrived at the end figure. Looking at his quote, certainly it seems that the drawings element should have been at a much lower cost. But part of my Defence will also be that they were not suitable for my purposes - 'not fit for purpose'.

 

Do I have to go into the detail about why they were not fit for purpose now? Or as you said above, that will form part of my witness statement.

 

Is there a cost to file a Defence?

 

Also - I have never had confirmation back from the court that they got my Acknowledment - is that normal? I did it online

 

Also - Can I do the Defence online too?

 

I wrote a letter to the builder - to which he never responded - explaining my reasons for non-payment.

 

Could that simply be my Defence now?

 

Can I attach a word doc on-line? If so, that will save me time in re-writing!

[AndyOrch]

The PoC were 2 sentences from him.

"non-payment of invoice # xxx for services provided in relation to producing drawings. The invoice has been outstanding since x date".

The amount of the invoice was the Claim + the court fee.

 

He didn't elaborate on the services provided nor any itemisation to equal the Claim value in the PoC. Is that normal? Yes he will expand in his statement

 

My Defence will contest the lack of itemisation and drawings not fit for purpose. His quote was large, he has apportioned this invoice with no clear itemisation how he arrived at the end figure. Looking at his quote, certainly it seems that the drawings element should have been at a much lower cost. But part of my Defence will also be that they were not suitable for my purposes - 'not fit for purpose'.

Do I have to go into the detail about why they were not fit for purpose now? Or as you said above, that will form part of my witness statement. Statement

 

Is there a cost to file a Defence? no

 

Also - I have never had confirmation back from the court that they got my Acknowledment - is that normal? I did it online

You dont get one...only after your defence

 

Also - Can I do the Defence online too? Yes

 

I wrote a letter to the builder - to which he never responded - explaining my reasons for non-payment. Could that simply be my Defence now? Is it in the particulars ? Can I attach a word doc on-line? No If so, that will save me time in re-writing!

 

Andy

[HP Mum]

The builder never referred to my letter in his PoC

 

When he advised he was due to make a claim if I didn't pay his old invoice I resent him the letter I had sent 1.5y ago.

He never acknowledged my letter or responded to my comments/ complaints. He just made a claim.

The contents of the letter are actually pretty much my Defence

[AndyOrch]

Also - Can I do the Defence online too?

 

I wrote a letter to the builder - to which he never responded - explaining my reasons for non-payment. Could that simply be my Defence now? Can I attach a word doc on-line? If so, that will save me time in re-writing!

 

The builder never referred to my letter in his PoC

 

When he advised he was due to make a claim if I didn't pay his old invoice I resent him the letter I had sent 1.5y ago.

He never acknowledged my letter or responded to my comments/ complaints. He just made a claim.

The contents of the letter are actually pretty much my Defence

 

Then it cant go in your defence......back to your first post today and my response.....initial defence simply respond to the pleadings and the rest goes into the statement later.

[HP Mum]

Do I need an actual cost for a counter claim? Or can it be an estimate?

I have got quotes from many different builders and architects for the same jobs he quoted for. They do vary and I have not done the work yet

[mariner51]

You need to apportion your time in rebutting the claim within timescale or not contested.

[HP Mum]

Thanks Mariner - not sure I totally understand that though?? Do you mean I can add in costs to work on my Defence?

I was thinking more along the lines of the costs to re-appoint a different company to do the drawings again.

 

If I don't add a cost for re-doing now, is it that I won't be able to reclaim these costs later?

 

 

So, for example, the judge may say - he did do the provisional drawings, for which there is a cost element.

My argument would be that yes he did the drawings, but I can't use them for planning as they were not complete nor suitable for my project (eg: did not include one floor, for which I would need Planning Permission Application to Council) - and I will have to appoint a different company to re-do the job - and I will have to pay for this new service.

 

A Judge may say that the new company could use this builder's provisional drawings?

One new company I approached said they could possibly use this builder's drawings and elaborate on them to include the other areas he didn't do.

So, looking at that possible Judge angle, it would seem to be prudent to add in 2 costs - one for a company to completely re-do; the other for a company to use this builder's drawings and improve. Can I do that?

 

Or would it be best to simply Counter Claim for the same amount he is claiming?

 

Just trying to get my head round the best route.

 

In the meantime I am drafting my Defence to file this am.

[BankFodder]

Sorry to pop in here at this very late stage, but I understand that one of the issues is that the original agreement was to produce a particular set of drawings relating to an entire property and in the event, the drawings only related to part of the property and they were therefore incomplete.

 

Is this correct?

 

If it is correct then one of your very strong heads of defence in addition to the poor quality of the work is that the plans which were eventually submitted were incomplete and that the contract is not a severable contract and therefore the claimant is not entitled to levy a pro rata charge as it is not possible to have a new planner simply add the missing parts to the drawings by by the claimant and the project would have be started again from scratch.

 

Please excuse me if I have got the wrong end of the stick

 

I suggest that you post up your completed defence here in PDF format before filing it

[BankFodder]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severable_contract

[HP Mum]

Just going through my notes and earlier posts here:

 

He quoted a 'fixed fee' - which he wrote would be for: measuring, discussing options, submitting a pre-application to council *, submitting a detailed planning statement outlining the proposals in accordance with planning policy docs and relevant planning history of the area*, doing some initial simple building work*. *= not done

 

All of this he suggested would be £3.6k +vat. I did not approve the drawings / he didn' do any other part of his quote.

 

Yet he still sent in an invoice for 50% value of the quote.

 

An earlier comment said: I need to point to some way in which he is in breach of contract due to his services not being up to scratch. For example, if he agreed to do plans for submission to the planning authorities but the plans are no good for that purpose, then his work product is not fit for purpose.

 

So perhaps a simple Defence now based on those points?

 

Thanks Bank Fodder

I have an existing 3 floor property with a demised 4th floor roof terrace.

Proposal to add a storey on the 4th floor terrace & dig a basement.

 

He did drawings for the 3 floors - he did not provide existing drawing of the 4th floor terrace nor proposed.

 

I understand you can't draw in an existing basement as it is not dug out yet - yet he did not do a proposed drawing using the space below the g/f.

 

Part of his quote - mentioned in post 48 - was to be prepared for Pre-Planning.

The drawings he presented were internal changes that would not have needed Pre-Planning. The 4th floor storey extension and basement dig would need Pre-Planning and Full PP - and this was not provided in his drawings.

 

So - yes - the drawings were incomplete.

 

I will read the link you just provided now

[BankFodder]

Please have a look at the draft defence below and let us know if you think it covers all the points, if it is correct and you agree with it.

 

Please suggest any other matters that you think may have been omitted.

 

Don't forget that there is a character limit on the MCOL website

 

1. The claimant's claim is denied
   
2. The claimant undertook to carry out certain works in relation to a proposed building project on the XXX date XXX
   
3. The claimant's proposal itemised the work to be carried out and made it clear that the said works were for a "fixed fee" of £3600 plus VAT.
   
4. The claimant only partially completed the work which he had agreed to do.
   
5. The claimant is now attempting to suggest that the contract is severable and he is trying to impose what he considers to be a pro rata fee.
   
6. The contract is not a severable contract.
   
7. In any event the partial work which has been tendered is of very poor quality.
   
8. The defendant made clear her objection to the submitted work on XXX date XXX
   

 

[HP Mum]

For the record - the "simple building work" he mentioned in his quote, and wanted to charge at his usual hourly rate of £150/h - was not simple at all.

 

Briefly - I was creating 2 properties out of 1.

 

I'm not a builder but I itemised what needed to be done (he hadn't) and set about preparing and then doing some of the work myself - separating utilities - with the help of an electrician and plumber & BT engineer. It took weeks.

 

As a project manager, he must have known that my ideas translated into work was not "simple building work". It would have been madness to be paying £150/h for the work that needed to be done.

 

I wanted to brick up doors between one building and the other, cut holes in floors and add a staircase - when I researched it I understood I needed a structural engineer - for appropriate RSJ's, lintels etc. These costs were not even intimated in his quote.

 

I wised up whilst doing the above.

Realised that if I was not on top of the project I was going to be ripped off by my ignorance.

 

Gosh - Thanks BankFodder. I would have waffled!

 

So:

1. The claimant's claim is denied YES

2. The claimant undertook to carry out certain works in relation to a proposed building project on the XXX date XXX YES

3. The claimant's proposal itemised the work to be carried out and made it clear that the said works were for a "fixed fee" of £3600 plus VAT. He listed jobs that had to be done, but did NOT itemise the components of the jobs. He said additional costs would be incurred, ie the £150/h simple building work (which wasnt simple)

4. The claimant only partially completed the work which he had agreed to do. YES - he didn't include 2 areas

5. The claimant is now attempting to suggest that the contract is severable and he is trying to impose what he considers to be a pro rata fee. YES. The % of work he did does not equal 60% of the 'fixed fee'

6. The contract is not a severable contract. Yes, based on what you just advise?

7. In any event the partial work which has been tendered is of very poor quality. YES

8. The defendant made clear her objection to the submitted work on XXX date XXX YES

[BankFodder]

Please can you reproduce here in bullet pointed form the jobs that had to be done and whether or not he did those jobs

[HP Mum]

OK

 

Intro letter where he offered services to:

assist in subdivision of a property, including a basement floor & refurbishment of new building

 

He confirmed from our talks that I wanted him to provide a fee quotation for:

- producing existing and proposed drawings of the addition, including the terrace, g/f garage & basement under garage in relation to its development

 

His fixed fee (stage 1) includes:

- discussing various options

- when have an option that I like, he will submit a pre-application

- submitting a detailed planning statement outlining the proposals, in accordance with

 

Planning Policy docs and relevant planning history of the area

- he would need to deal with the subdivision on the property to form a separate property, as required by Planning Regs.

- confirmed his fee for carrying out this element would be £3.6k

 

He submitted further Stages, but they are not relevant here.

 

He didnt include the terrace or the basement in his drawings

 

Yes we discussed.

 

We never got beyond his first drawings - they didn't include the 4th floor terrace or the basement and I didn't like his proposal internal drawings for the existing 3 floors.

 

no pre-planning application, no detailed planning statement, no dealing with the sub-division

 

In his Intro Letter, where he wrote:

he would need to deal with the subdivision on the property to form a separate property

 

"needing to deal with" meant that he wrote separately that he would charge £150/hour for this simple subdivision.

 

Yet he did not itemise what had to be done to sub-divide.

I did that itemisation and (some of the) work myself - and it took weeks.

 

he included it in his £3.6k quote - yet then said it would cost more

 

Hi Bankfodder - do you think its ok to file what you composed for me?

Or does it need tweeks due to my subsequent posts?