Article 50 Discussion

[honeybee13]

Now Corbyn has called a vote of no confidence in the PM, as opposed to the government. I haven't read anything yet that explains how this works.

[tobyjugg2]

Now Corbyn has called a vote of no confidence in the PM, as opposed to the government. I haven't read anything yet that explains how this works.

 

its just Corbyn trying to make sure May is weakened and hope for a hard brexit replacement or at worst just play for time.

 

If I understand it correctly,

Its a motion of no confidence in the Pm, not the Party, and is non binding.

 

Labour can actually play the no confidence vote as often as they like, although if they over-play it roo many times after losing, then the speaker should refuse it.

 

 

Whats he doing?

He's just trying to avoid a referendum,

 

- He's avoiding a full blown vote of no confidence in the government - failure of which will require him to press for a referendum per the Party conference and momentums stance.

 

It looks like he's using the Labour Party to do the ERG and DUP's work (because Corbyn wants hard Brexit),

and playing games to frustrate the party and membership and PLP's stated goals.

[honeybee13]

It's very odd, isn't it?

[tobyjugg2]

It's very odd, isn't it?

 

Only that he's getting away with it, although even Corbyn standfast fanboys' statements are changing.

[determindator]

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

[tobyjugg2]

Going to be an interesting day tomorrow.

 

May seems reasonably confident she will win,

and if she wins - that will put Corbyn firmly on the s-pot.

 

If May loses, I'm not sure what will happen.

The pressure will certainly be on to replace her, but she does have the support of most of the Tory party and has just won a confidence vote

- as they realise that almost anyone else would likely cause total war within the Tory party,

- and also realise that hard brexit = likely civil as well as economic chaos.

.. so possibly not much at all .... Yayyyy sings Jezzy. Could mean more power to parliament whatever that means.

 

 

Note that it seems Corbyn didn't want to do anything but sit back and let the clock run (a la May ooops we fell off), but various pressures pretty much forced him into a no confidence vote

- so he slid sideways with the NC vote in May rather than the government - like the snake he is.

[determindator]

https://www.ft.com/content/41703908-e1d7-11e8-a6e5-792428919cee

 

https://www.rt.com/uk/446631-brexit-may-leadership-removal/

[determindator]

The FT link didn't connect to article, the google is Attorney-general holds the key to unlocking a Brexit deal.

 

Robert Peston explained the current situation well on ITV news tonight

[tobyjugg2]

https://www.ft.com/content/41703908-e1d7-11e8-a6e5-792428919cee

 

https://www.rt.com/uk/446631-brexit-may-leadership-removal/

 

Yep - what ERG, DUP and Corbyn want

 

Have Brexit then talk about it, and maybe plan for it - afterwards when there are NO choices left ...

 

 

Even Hunt jumped on board - going to make a success of Brexit just like he has the NHS

[tobyjugg2]

Yep - what ERG, DUP and Corbyn want

 

Have Brexit then talk about it, and maybe plan for it - afterwards when there are NO choices left ...

 

 

Even Hunt jumped on board - going to make a success of Brexit just like he has the NHS

 

and the real opposition parties table a proper vote of no confidence in May government after correcting somewhat labours Corbyn pointless motion -

... of course - unsupported by labour

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-snp/minor-uk-opposition-parties-table-vote-of-no-confidence-in-government-idUKKBN1OH2L7

 

 

Corbyns excuse - we wont win - well they never will given the rules and the numbers as Corbyn well knows - so hes doing the same as May and running the clock out.

 

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/article-50_uk_5c17c886e4b049efa7550264?hw&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/12/row-over-jeremy-corbyn-and-no-confidence-motions-really-about-brexit

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/16/labour-activists-pressure-corbyn-second-vote-new-referendum

 

 

 

Cameron and May aren't the worst thing thats happened to UK politics since the War - Corbyn is

[honeybee13]

I agree, TJ, Corbyn's no confidence motion was just cosmetic. I read that the other parties can't table the motion with any urgency unless the leader of the opposition signs it.

 

So now HMG are planning on with no deal planning, despite most of Parliament being said to be against that. Well, what's £2bn here or there? Some commentators are suggesting that they're trying to force the 'deal' through Parliament without letting MPs have a say. Seems undemocratic to me.

[snowdragon]

it appears he has called Mrs May a stupid woman! , no idea if it is true

[honeybee13]

It's not clear if he did or not, but it's not a good thing to say.

 

I'd have thought they had more important things to worry about right now, though.

[tobyjugg2]

it appears he has called Mrs May a stupid woman! , no idea if it is true

 

judge for yourself (stupid woman or stupid people as he claims - looks like a wuh not a puh to me)

 

 

 

 

The tories also asked him how it is that he claims to be so opposed to outsourcing, when he had completely outsourced the opposition to the other parties.

... Nods from all sides - including Labour back benches

 

Corbyn is proving he is a complete liability to labour on a daily basis.

Even Owen Jones' support seems weakened and wavering - quite rightly.

 

Almost any other (apart from Abbott) leading and labour would almost certainly be in power now. Certainly nearer power.

 

 

Der Leader (pronounced liability) needs to be got rid of

- and he wont go any easier than his partner in politics May

[tobyjugg2]

and in slo-mo

 

 

 

Interesting that he is also still saying if May cant deliver a deal, step aside for someone who can...

Who's that then?

Corbyn cant even deliver a vote of no confidence in what must be the most clear cut case in decades.

[tobyjugg2]

As Putin adds to Corbyns and the DUP's support of Mays crash out Brexit:

Russian president gives backing to UK prime minister in ‘fighting for this Brexit’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/20/vladimir-putin-theresa-may-brexit-fulfil-will-of-the-people

 

 

and (Putin) supports Trump betraying the only half way legitimate forces who fought with the west against ISIS, leaving the way for Turkey to launch attacks on the democratic and tolerant Kurds:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/20/syria-kurds-trump-troop-withdrawal-isis-turkey

 

.. apparently to ease the Turkish leverage against Trump ally Saudi Arabia.

 

(We should have kicked Turkey out of NATO and fully supported the Kurds)

[honeybee13]

Opinion seems to be that Putin just wants to disrupt the EU, although I thought he was doing that via social media troll factories.

 

Who knows what he's up to over Syria, that sounds like disruption too.

[tobyjugg2]

Opinion seems to be that Putin just wants to disrupt the EU, although I thought he was doing that via social media troll factories.

 

Who knows what he's up to over Syria, that sounds like disruption too.

 

All Putin has to do is let the Turk destroy the Kurdish American allies,

and of course most of the terrorists the Kurdish/American alliance were fighting were (allegedly) Turk nusra.

 

Turkey will rely on NATO membership keeping the Russians at Bay.

As far as the Russians are concerned - they are all enemies fighting each other.

Russia keeps their presence all the way down to Iran.

 

 

After driving the Kurds back, Turkey will end up with guerilla war with Kurds, Iran, Iraq and probably Saudi Arabia (in 'secret' anyway) with Russia 'helping' the mess where it can (as will British, US, Chinese and French spooks among others).

 

Turkey will almost certainly 'win' land - during which alienation with the west will increase dramatically, and Turkey will further use displacement of civilians as leverage over the EU

NATO will continue to be massively weakened while Trump remains and the UK is in turmoil - even worse if we do Brexit. - Depending on how much - Russia might give Turkey a bloody nose after they have suppressed the Kurds.

 

Turkey will be even further split from any EU ambitions and Cyprus and surrounding gas deposits will escalate as a flashpoint with ever growing Turkish involvement.

 

EU Vs Turkey is a matter of when not if, which is why Turkey is the lever behind the undermining of NATO from within.

US re-engagement is likely when Trump is eventually thrown out/in Jail.

 

Global warming will also increase population migration and local wars.

 

... Thats likely the next 10 years thanks to Human abuse of the planet and right/left wing nutters being pandered to - because they are noisy and break laws with impunity.

[tobyjugg2]

and despite all teh lack of faith in pols we dont like

Exclusive: YouGov Poll Reveals 64% Want Second Brexit Referendum

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/yougov-poll-reveals-64-want-second-brexit-referendum_uk_5c1b90fee4b05c88b6f5815f?l0m&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

 

"Nearly 80% of Labour voters said they would back a re-run of the 2016 referendum"

 

"64% want a second referendum to break the parliamentary deadlock, a figure which rises to 79% among Labour voters."

 

"Among Labour leave voters the split is 50/50"

 

 

 

 

So much for McCluckskiMcTrotski and Stupid 'Womble Person' Corbyn pandering/FEARING the noisy minority Hard Brexit 'labour' supporters.

 

(no offense intended to wombles - its perhaps another claim of what he really said)

[ericsbrother]

Continuing on your previous topic Turkey will certainly invade Iraq to try and destroy the Kurdish homelands and probaly Armenia as well. the Russias will say nothing because they will continue their incursions into Georgia and with the US not caring and turkey giving them the nod you will see a NATO country invaded without the massive retaliation that was promised back in the 60's to 80's.

other NATO countries like Germany will do nothing beacuse of the number of Turks living there and ther countries witha Russian border will be too afraid to.

Now what would then happen if Iran has expansionist plans? Iraq ( the kurdish part) a certainty but a border between Russia, Turkey and Iran will be a major flashpoint as there was a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan in the past so invasion by Iran and Russia equally likely to be a possibility.

 

Population growth exacerbates nationalism and opens old wounds. I hoped that when the old guard politicians in Moscow and elsewhwere who fought in WW2 died out there would be a change for the better but it didnt last.

[tobyjugg2]

the Russias will say nothing because they will continue their incursions into Georgia and with the US not caring and turkey giving them the nod you will see a NATO country invaded without the massive retaliation that was promised back in the 60's to 80's.

other NATO countries like Germany will do nothing beacuse of the number of Turks living there and ther countries witha Russian border will be too afraid to.

 

Which is why the EU wants and NEEDS military capability, and another immensely significant reason why the UK should NOT leave the EU (although most wont even see that need - although the Brexit loss of economic strength and environmental and citizens/workers rights loss is MORE than enough reason alone NOT to Brexit)

 

 

Any US involvement is hamstrung by the Saudi ties. The yanks out of Europe and the middle east is a good thing, but europe needs to step up, with France and the UK actually becoming the partnership they should have @ suez.

[tobyjugg2]

What Corbyn actually muttered

[Jase1982]

I don't know why anyone even debates parliamentary antics, and what Corbyn is or isn't doing. Anything anyone says or does in Westminster to do with Brexit is currently just the epitomisation or hypernormalisation. All roads literally lead nowhere, and I don't quite understand the batty position of people that want to remain - Blaming Corbyn for not doing more. He literally can't do anything. None of the Tories know what to do, and have very little knowledge over what Brexit means. Corbyn as leader of the opposition has to be seen to be putting the Tories to task over something none of them are particularly knowledgeable about. Politicians are now blindly following the Brexit path as they're stuck in a loop of "enacting the will of the people".

[honeybee13]

You're right, Jase. But there have been a couple of polls this week that seem to show the 'will of the people' has changed over Brexit. I'll post a link in a minute.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/20/polls-stay-eu-yougov-brexit-peoples-vote

[honeybee13]

Link added to post above.

 

I just can't believe that parliament has waltzed off on its recess with 98 days is it? to Brexit. And we think there might be a vote in mid-January. They don't seem at all bothered about the country potentially falling off a cliff at the end of March.

 

Edit: most of them don't seem to be bothered. I think Anna Soubry and one or two other MPs said they should sit over Christmas.