Article 50 Discussion

[Consumer dude]

You're making me paranoid now CD! I never had you down as a traitor!

 

Great answer, now humour is creeping back into the thread..

[WarrenBuffet]

Great answer, now humour is creeping back into the thread..

 

 

Great, let's keep that way, life is too short for unnecessary nonsense.

[maroondevo52]

Great, let's keep that way, life is too short for unnecessary nonsense.

 

[Laura Thyme]

My point is against people coming and going at their will,

What's wrong with that? Only dictatorships like the former Soviet Block stop people from leaving the country.

work cash in hands, commit benefit fraud,

The vast majority of EU citizens don't do this, and both British natives and non EU immigrants can get involved in this sort of thing, so where's the connection?

piling up debts and then leaving us to foot the bill.

You are not responsible for other people's debts.

If we had control of our borders maybe we could reduce such problem.

Britain has never been in the Schengen area, so we've always had control of our borders. It's not like once they are inside the EU, migrants from outside the EU can get into Britain without further controls. Also this is an island and quite far from the countries in Asia and Africa where most migrants come from. Mediterranean countries like Greece, Italy, France and Spain have a much bigger problem.

There will always be illegal immigrants and that's a fact of life.

And they don't always do as much harm as people think. Once upon a time in 2004 a movie was made in America, entitled "A Day Without Mexicans". It referred to what would happen to peoples everyday lives without the benefit of Mexicans working in the US, a lot of them illegally.

I think I have made it clear that i would have no problem applying for a visa to go to Europe, It's a small price I'm ready to pay.

Good for you but not everyone shares your view.

Besides, instead of moaning about why I voted to leave, why don't you give us some good reasons why you voted to stay???

You're acting like the politicians of the remain campaign, no arguments but just slagging off the leavers

The leavers tend to do exactly that, just say "we won", "get on with it" and "stop moaning", without actually saying what improvements they expect to see in our every day lives after Brexit, as opposed to repeating what the media posts, as you've done above.

[Laura Thyme]

I had neighbors, Africans and Asians committing benefit fraud and piling up debts.

This is hardly the end of the world and I leave it up to the court system to judge them. So what would happen if no-one did this? Do you really believe you'd get to see the money saved? Nope! The government would find a way to use it for their own purposes. I'm not concerned with what people do with their own lives, as long as they don't attack others. You should be concerned about people who commit violent crimes as opposed to those who don't repay their debts.

[Laura Thyme]

They have no policies, no mandate, their reason for being has been achieved and now they are redundant.

I concur, UKIP was the Brexit party, that was their main focus and very little else.

[Laura Thyme]

I have in fact a very bad problem with illegal immigrants, note, not genuine asylum seekers but immigrants who deliberately decide that our laws are not good enough and instead of applying for a visa they come here illegally.

Why do you have such a bad problem? First of all, this is an island and sneaking in clandestinely without papers is not at all easy. This isn't the US where there are millions of undocumented people, i.e. people without any documents. Other than the few who risk their lives to come in the back of a lorry, most illegals are actually overstayers who came here on a visa. If you know the first thing about immigration law, you'll know it's not exactly easy for non EU nationals to get a visa that allows them to live and work here.

 

Illegal immigrants are hardly living the high life here, they have to do the worst jobs for very little money, often less than minimum wage and endure poor working conditions and no rights. The natives and residents wouldn't put up with this so there is room for illegal immigrants to fill the gap, and this is situation is hardly exclusive to the UK, nor has it anything to do with EU membership.

I haven't got a problem with EU immigrants who come here, work, contribute to society and behave, but I have a big problem with EU immigrants who come along for the benefits only,

Are you aware of the new regs limiting the rights of EU citizens to claim benefits? Unless they are permanent residents, in which case they enjoy equal rights as British people and other permanent residents. There are also many natives who claim benefits all their lives and bring up large families without ever working, and their kids go on to do the same thing.

the criminals who pass the borders unchecked and then commit crimes here,

There aren't that many of them. Once more, the majority of criminals are either natives or people who've settled here a long time ago. In fact, most come here to work rather than sponge off the system or commit crimes.

the fraudsters who take out as many loans and credit cards, borrow money from people, don't pay rent and all bills and then move to another address to start all over again.

Why is this any concern of yours? If you are a landlord, I'd understand the rent bit but what do you care if people pay their credit cards or other bills?

I don't know about you, but a large chunk of my wages goes in tax, why should I support a centralised EU government dictating how our government should waste my money???

The EU does not dictate how the British government wastes its money, it can do that very well without assistance and will continue to do so, Brexit or not.

Then if you're deliberately taking benefits despite being able to work i can only wish you the best of luck and understand perfectly your fine point.

It is perfectly legal to claim benefits "despite being able to work", Jobseekers Allowance has been "deliberately" set up for those who are able to work, as opposed to ESA.

[Laura Thyme]

If the government do not uphold the referendum vote, then what is the point in voting ?..

It was an advisory vote, not legally binding. We could start a poll on here to ask, say, whether we'd like to see less ads on CAG. A lot of members could well vote "yes" to less ads because they are a bit intrusive, however, Bankfodder may well decide that the ads are what make the site economically viable.

 

IF it starts to look like Brexit will cause severe damage to the economy and Government faced impossible decisions e.g cutting pensions, reducing NHS spending, then you can bet that public opinion will start to change. Government can't ignore what the public are saying and just plough on based on one non binding referendum vote.

It may well be that the EU makes the UK more economically viable too.

 

If the electorate are not fully aware of all consequences and misled by lies/ untruths then, how can the result be trusted?

Indeed, that's precisely what I had in mind when I started the thread. All those people who seemed horrified at the thought of 3.5m EU citizens staying on were a good example of how misinformed some Brexiters were as to what would really happen, and the reasons they voted Leave.

[Laura Thyme]

You are personally atacking me, it was Laura who pointed out to ignorance of Brexiters by starting thread, I even never used word 'stupid'. You made bunch of false allegations so far.

Yes, I did, although I wasn't referring to each and every Brexiter, I was referring to a specific example of ignorance amongst Brexiters. Anyone who voted Leave expecting 3.5m EU citizens to be removed was grossly mistaken, and in this case we can't even blame the government as with the infamous £350m for the NHS, as no-one ever said anything about removing people already here.

 

We are the 52%..

Funny how this seems to be the top argument in favour of Brexit, rather than anything more substantial.

 

It is less then half the people that voted which is less then the majority and the point of voting is you go with the majority, how is it possible any other way ?..

It is possible to require a a higher majority, such as 60%. When you sit an exam, the minimum pass mark isn't necessarily 50% because it could well be regarded as not enough knowledge and a higher mark, such as 60% or 70% may be set. I'd have thought a decision of this magnitude would require something more along those lines.

[Laura Thyme]

Opinion as well is great but once the argument has been decided through the ballot box, do we keeping re running the vote until those that shout the loudest get there way, their must come a time where those that lost hold up there hands and accept that in life no one can have there own way all of the time..

The only way a new vote would yield a different result would be if either

a) existing voters had changed their minds; or

b) people who didn't vote last time decided to vote this time.

 

In the case of a) that would mean people were not really well informed when they voted the first time and, after seeing the potential consequences, have taken a different view, maybe a more pragmatic one. In the case of b) that would mean hearing those voices that remained silent the first time round, a lot of younger people in particular, who probably thought few would be mad enough to vote Leave and didn't bother.

[Laura Thyme]

If Brexiters are so sure of their ground, why worry about a new vote? The only reason for concern would be if some previously blind Brexiters had a cornea transplant and are now able to see the light, and some previously lazy voters decided to stand up and be counted, producing a different result.

[Consumer dude]

I am so sure of my ground, it's called voting, it's called democracy. I am not interested in this con 'It's only advisory', as without the people, you have no one to make money out of. It's the people that have spoken and the re moaners have lost and they simply don't like it and the thing about this simple fact is the truth is still the truth regardless..

[unclebulgaria67]

I am so sure of my ground, it's called voting, it's called democracy. I am not interested in this con 'It's only advisory', as without the people, you have no one to make money out of. It's the people that have spoken and the re moaners have lost and they simply don't like it and the thing about this simple fact is the truth is still the truth regardless..

 

The UK generally does not hold referendums, because they don't always decide issues. The UK is a Parliamentary democracy with 650 elected MP's. In May 2015, the Tories included in their manifesto commitment to hold a referendum on UK membership of the EU. A bill of Parliament was passed to hold a referendum. This bill of Parliament was not binding on Parliament to implement the result of the referendum, as the referendum was simply a remain or leave choice, without any details of what people wanted in regard to UK trade relations, border immigration controls etc.

 

If you argue that Brexit means Brexit and are happy with any government arrangements with the EU, then i take it that you agree that the UK can make a deal that includes tariff free access to EU single market, free movement of all EU nationals to the UK and UK Parliament still implementing most EU laws. This deal would be similar to the one Norway has with the EU.

[Consumer dude]

I would be in favour of an Australia visa type system..

[unclebulgaria67]

I would be in favour of an Australia visa type system..

 

That is not an option as Theresa May says it won't work for the UK.

 

Not everyone from the leave campaign suggested it would be an option.

 

The UK is more complicated than Australia, because of our big University sector, scientific research sector, financial centre and UK being used as a hub by global companies with employees moving between countries. Not to mention the film industry with billions being spent in the UK, with productions operating across Europe and worldwide.

 

You then have the UK with a population more than three times the size of Australia and much more diverse culturally. There are millions of people currently living abroad that have rights to come to the UK, because parent or grandparent was British. British people with foreign spouses. Etc etc.

 

Even Nigel Farage said it would be very difficult getting net migration down to tens of thousands and leaving the EU was purely about not allowing EU mainland nationals an automatic right to reside and work in the UK.

 

Net migration numbers even after any Brexit with no EU rights of free movement, would still be running at over 300,000 a year. I don't think it would change much.

 

Best way to improve migration numbers is for the EU to become financially successful and for people to decide to move to mainland EU. Brexit might actually increase population in the short term and make it more difficult, as EU not Brits decide to stay, rather than return to their country of origin.

[king12345]

What's wrong with that? Only dictatorships like the former Soviet Block stop people from leaving the country.

I'm talking about immigrants who come, commit crimes and then leave unchallenged.

British of course can come and go as they like.

 

The vast majority of EU citizens don't do this, and both British natives and non EU immigrants can get involved in this sort of thing, so where's the connection?

Let's start taking the EU criminals out of the equation so we improve the numbers.

 

You are not responsible for other people's debts.

Example: Unpaid council tax.

Less money for local government and money wasted on prosecution of someone who will never be seen again.

That's taxpayers' money.

Maybe not yours.

 

Britain has never been in the Schengen area, so we've always had control of our borders. It's not like once they are inside the EU, migrants from outside the EU can get into Britain without further controls. Also this is an island and quite far from the countries in Asia and Africa where most migrants come from. Mediterranean countries like Greece, Italy, France and Spain have a much bigger problem.

Is this why immigration is such a problem that convinced half the population to vote leave???

 

And they don't always do as much harm as people think. Once upon a time in 2004 a movie was made in America, entitled "A Day Without Mexicans". It referred to what would happen to peoples everyday lives without the benefit of Mexicans working in the US, a lot of them illegally.

Good for you but not everyone shares your view.

The leavers tend to do exactly that, just say "we won", "get on with it" and "stop moaning", without actually saying what improvements they expect to see in our every day lives after Brexit, as opposed to repeating what the media posts, as you've done above.

 

True about immigrants, we are needed, but we don't need the lazy and the ones working cash in hands and claiming benefits.

They must follow the rules of this land.

Brexitiers explained what they expect, It's the stayers who just moan and point fingers, calling brexitiers (the majority) stupid.

[king12345]

Why do you have such a bad problem? First of all, this is an island and sneaking in clandestinely without papers is not at all easy. This isn't the US where there are millions of undocumented people, i.e. people without any documents. Other than the few who risk their lives to come in the back of a lorry, most illegals are actually overstayers who came here on a visa. If you know the first thing about immigration law, you'll know it's not exactly easy for non EU nationals to get a visa that allows them to live and work here.

 

Illegal immigrants are hardly living the high life here, they have to do the worst jobs for very little money, often less than minimum wage and endure poor working conditions and no rights. The natives and residents wouldn't put up with this so there is room for illegal immigrants to fill the gap, and this is situation is hardly exclusive to the UK, nor has it anything to do with EU membership.

Addressing the illegal immigration problem would automatically improve working conditions for everyone.

If companies were fined heavily for taking illegal immigrants on board or pay less than minimum wage, things would improve.

Unfortunately the scale of the problem is massive and the resources limited.

 

Are you aware of the new regs limiting the rights of EU citizens to claim benefits? Unless they are permanent residents, in which case they enjoy equal rights as British people and other permanent residents. There are also many natives who claim benefits all their lives and bring up large families without ever working, and their kids go on to do the same thing.

It doesn't work.

I know people who have arrived from EU a few weeks ago and they already get enough benefits to live comfortably.

British people claiming benefits at least do so in their own country, they don't travel abroad to be a burden to society.

I look at them like the black sheep in a family, the rebel son.

Of course I don't condone those who could work but decide to stay on benefits, but as said, at least they do it in their own country.

 

There aren't that many of them. Once more, the majority of criminals are either natives or people who've settled here a long time ago. In fact, most come here to work rather than sponge off the system or commit crimes.

Abu Hamza.

A well known terrorist who arrived in UK with false documents and then converted to terrorism many young people.

We were left to foot the bill for the extradition case because of human rights imposed by EU.

What about human rights of the victims of this monster???

Many criminals use false EU identity cards to enter the UK because they're very easily forged.

Thousands live amongst us without any way for us to check if they're wanted in their country.

 

Why is this any concern of yours? If you are a landlord, I'd understand the rent bit but what do you care if people pay their credit cards or other bills?

 

Again, unpaid government bills is my money and everyone else's who pays tax.

Maybe not yours.

Unpaid credit cards debts can end up in court, clogging the system and costing taxpayers money.

Again, not your money so not your problem?

Unpaid rent puts landlords in arrears with mortgage, fees added to account, eventually court and so on.

So a hard working person who managed to become a landlord is screwed over by someone who doesn't follow the rules.

You're probably loving this.

 

The EU does not dictate how the British government wastes its money, it can do that very well without assistance and will continue to do so, Brexit or not.

£65M per day NET.

That's what EU sucks out of our veins.

Start saving that.

That's an official figure, look it up.

But even if it was "only" £1M per day, that's £1M too much.

 

It is perfectly legal to claim benefits "despite being able to work", Jobseekers Allowance has been "deliberately" set up for those who are able to work, as opposed to ESA.

 

So in your opinion it is ok to migrate to a country with the sole scope to sit on a sofa watching daytime tv and suck money out of public purse.

Nice!

Can i come and live at your house for free without ever contributing for food, rent, bills etc???

[Noah1]

My experience with some Brexiters: 1. Contantly bringing illegal imigrant, asylum seekers which should be not even discussed in this post to Brexit debate. Lately Abu Hamza who wasn't even born in Europe, nor represent any European/Western values.A well known terrorist who arrived in UK and British borders officials failed to stop him. Britain is responsible for guarding British borders, why Europeans are blamed for it? Why anybody is surprised at current mess if such simple distinctions in immigration/migration status are constantly mixed? 2. It has been difficult to get the message accross that Britain is unwelcomed in the EU and was repeatedly asked, prompted to triger the Article 50. Britain, not EU, cowardly holds back now and Brexites speak, behave as somebody would asked them to stay although Europeans asked them to go. Brexiters got their way, what they are still winging about? 3.Can anybody point me out to thread which allegelly calls Brexiters stupid as I couldn't find it so far?

[cjcregg]

£65M per day NET.

That's what EU sucks out of our veins.

Start saving that.

That's an official figure, look it up.

But even if it was "only" £1M per day, that's £1M too much.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have any idea how much the UK will have to pay in import & export tariffs as a result of having to leave the EU single market? The fact is until we do, banding figures around about how much the EU currently costs (or indeed saves) the nation are meaningless.

[Noah1]

Can we keep it civil guys, please?

 

HB

 

I'm keeping it civil, never used word'stupid so I think you may send reminder to where false allegations came from. I don't feel comfortable to be accused ot something I've never wrote, neither silenced, mocked because I didn't exercise the right to vote. Also, contributers should keep to the topic and if they have issues in other areas, they can start thread about illegal immigration, assylum seekers elsewhere. It's simple rule that was repeatedly broken.

[Noah1]

Shocking ignorance amongst Brexit voters exposed through following statement (not mine): No named Brexiter again falsely alleged followig: 'I know people who have arrived from EU a few weeks ago and they already get enough benefits to live comfortably.' I don't believe that this not named author of the above nonsense knows anybody like that. Firstly, the Law states that no EU citizen can claim benefits (neither JSA, nor Housing benefits) straight away after arrival. Everybody has to have either families, friends or savings to support themselves from the beginning. If anybody from EU arrives here and lives comfortably, it means they are using their savings for which they had to work hard in Europe and in this way contribute by paying rent, transport, buying food, etc. Or, they may have permanent residents which means they lived here before for decades. Stop misinterpreting the UK welfare system as favouring EU citizens as this is not the truth and they have benefit restrictions ( have to meet certain criteria as anybody else). 'British people claiming benefits at least do so in their own country, they don't travel abroad to be a burden to society.' I witnessed British being so drunk that they were crawling, vomiting, being on European beaches making a mess, which had to be dealt with by local Europeans and they were certainly burden.

[Noah1]

If Brexiters are so sure of their ground, why worry about a new vote? The only reason for concern would be if some previously blind Brexiters had a cornea transplant and are now able to see the light, and some previously lazy voters decided to stand up and be counted, producing a different result.

 

I can confirm that I spoke to a few Brexit voters who after considering consequences for their children, wouldn't vote for Brexit again. The irony of Brexit vote is that older generation who preferred Brexit is not going to be as much affected because Britain still takes many advantages from EU ( such as holding on before the Article 50 is triggered, etc.). To the contrary younger generation who wished to stay, will have to live through consequences imposed on them by older who will be in decades to come gone.

[king12345]

Do you have any idea how much the UK will have to pay in import & export tariffs as a result of having to leave the EU single market? The fact is until we do, banding figures around about how much the EU currently costs (or indeed saves) the nation are meaningless.

 

Yes, I have an idea: £0.00

Exiting the EU doesn't mean exiting the EEC agreements.

Besides, even if that was the case we import much more than we export, so if they want to sell their stuff to us they have to keep prices down or we buy from the rest of the world.

[king12345]

I'm keeping it civil, never used word'stupid so I think you may send reminder to where false allegations came from. I don't feel comfortable to be accused ot something I've never wrote, neither silenced, mocked because I didn't exercise the right to vote. Also, contributers should keep to the topic and if they have issues in other areas, they can start thread about illegal immigration, assylum seekers elsewhere. It's simple rule that was repeatedly broken.

 

Illegal immigrants come in UK with forged EU identity cards that you can buy for as little as £20.

If everyone had to be thoroughly checked we wouldn't have the problem of criminals sneaking in on false documents that can be forged by a 6 year old child.

As I mentioned before, as far as I'm concerned the moment you willingly decided not to vote you left the decision in someone else's hands.

Now you can't complain one way or another.

Then again, freedom of speech for many means that they can preach their gospel on subjects that they willingly decided not to be involved in.

[king12345]

Who's Jeremy Kyle ?

 

Jeremy Kyle is a colleague of David Attenborough.

They both dedicated their life to animals...