Article 50 Discussion

[London1971]

Won't make any difference

[honeybee13]

So it's the end of democracy then?

[London1971]

The problem is, there are arguments on both sides.  Referendum was a binary question, it shouldn't have been?Leave won ,arguably democratic.  You and I think the referendum was a stupid idea, distorted by lies, but nevertheless it involved a democratic choice.  That's me playing devils advocate.

[honeybee13]

Fwiw, I think the referendum was called for the wrong reasons, a lot of them to do with Cameron being worried about UKIP, and that the question was badly worded. For instance, it didn't ask about leaving with no deal.

 

Cameron, aka Captain Hindsight, assumed a Yes vote was a forgone conclusion and didn't bother to give much energy to the campaign. Nor did Osborne or May.

 

The Leave campaign had all the catchy slogans although quite a few of them have turned out to be economical with the truth.

[London1971]

Correct but there is a strong argument that it is democratic.  And if the boot was on the other foot, and remain had won the referendum, we would be outraged if Parliament was trying to thwart it.  So both sides can throw accusations of being undemocratic around, and both are correct.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Ever the peacemaker, London.

[tobyjugg2]

Let me play devils advocate to Londons devils advocating

 

 

Lets say Aldi beans are 23p a tin

 

I say come to my shop, an easy 10 paces walk around the corner and I'll sell you beans at 15p a tin (a democratic choice?)

 

You get to my shop and I say the beans are 38p a tin - but you've got to buy them

you had your choice and made it

 

?

 

 

 

How many people would pay?

 

... Let alone if you get around the corner and its the slip road to the m1 and the shop is 200 miles up the M1 ...

 

 

 

We are becoming far to comfortable and accepting of Government lying to us and then telling us thats the way it is.

[tobyjugg2]

Oh and I dont just mean Johnson and Vote Leave, they are just the latest worst incarnation.

 

The thing to really be concerned about is if they get away with it

- thats the new normal ...  until it follows its natural path and quickly gets even worse.

Edited August 28, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[cjcregg]

1 hour ago, London1971 said:

Correct but there is a strong argument that it is democratic.  And if the boot was on the other foot, and remain had won the referendum, we would be outraged if Parliament was trying to thwart it.  So both sides can throw accusations of being undemocratic around, and both are correct.

 

 

Where is the strength in an argument that the referendum was democratic? It was as undemocratic as the stunt that Johnson has just pulled as it is designed to exclude Parliament from the decision making process.

[hightail]

3 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

So it's the end of democracy then?

In as much as we accept an individual in a position of power can choose to bypass Parliament I think it is.  When it's an individual who was put in that position of power by their own followers only rather than the country it starts to look more like a coup than demcracy.

[tobyjugg2]

How true

 

 

This is not new, but worth a watch

Brexit: Endgame - The $20T Secret, with Stephen Fry

 

 

[fletch70]

4 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

So it's the end of democracy then?

I am not sure we have ever lived in a democracy- well certainly not in my voting lifetime. Once upon a time, not so many years ago, university graduates had two votes whereas others only had one. Now we get professional politicians who only want to do what is right for them- Johnson is a case in point, his switch to leave on the eve of the vote was a calculated decision with the aim of getting him where he is now- at the head of a deeply unpopular government that is only in power because the leader of the opposition hasn't understood he needs to play the game- oh and politically I support a lot of what Corbyn wants, re nationalisation of the railways and utilities and more public ownership.

 

 

By the way- living in Birmingham it is clear that not only will Brexit be a disaster but should they scrap HS2 the city will be on its knees

[tobyjugg2]

The petition to prevent dissolution of parliament (how appropriate a term) is well past a million and rising

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157

 

[brassnecked]

"Parliament must not be prorogued or dissolved unless and until the Article 50 period has been sufficiently extended or the UK's intention to withdraw from the EU has been cancelled."

 

Can't see that having any effect, potentially annoying the Leave voters who didn't want this mess, but then to a Remainer, any form of leave even EEA/EFTA is anathema so verboten.  Neither side comes out of this with any Brownie points. 

[London1971]

15 hours ago, cjcregg said:

Where is the strength in an argument that the referendum was democratic? It was as undemocratic as the stunt that Johnson has just pulled as it is designed to exclude Parliament from the decision making process.

 

I am just trying to see this from the other side,

 

There are zero benefits to a No Deal Brexit.

 

I am a Remainer but would have been OK with May's deal going through.  It's also interesting reading , this.  Respectable Poll from a respectable source.  Suspending parliament isn't popular, even with leavers.

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-poll/few-britons-back-month-long-parliament-break-before-brexit-yougov-idUKKCN1VI1TZ

[tobyjugg2]

3 hours ago, brassnecked said:

 but then to a Remainer, any form of leave even EEA/EFTA is anathema so verboten.

 

No so

 

The better than our existing deal cake and eat it all the benefits none of the costs, extra deals across the world ready to go before we leave, all without affecting our single market access and with no negative effects on our access or workers and environmental rights

 

... as sold by the Leave campaign

 

Would have done very nicely thank you

 

 

But some deal much worse than our existing deal, nowt sorted, worker, food and environmental rights out the window, collapsed currency, businesses and investment leaving the country  and slavery to whoever the Yanks might vote in ...

 

No thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

The legal cases are gearing up, three next week now.

 

Gina Miller's challenge has been joined by John Major, Tom Watson and now Jo Swinson.

[king12345]

In the mean time Germany is fearing a deep recession triggered by their healthy motor industry collapsing in the event of import tax imposed to the UK post Brexit.

[tobyjugg2]

27 minutes ago, king12345 said:

In the mean time Germany is fearing a deep recession triggered by their healthy motor industry collapsing in the event of import tax imposed to the UK post Brexit.

 

ROFL

 

Whys that

Someone think that financiers and politicians won't be able to afford BMW's any more?

 

They will have little choice but BMW's (or JCB's) given the collapse of the UK's motor industry.

 

Raleigh shares might be a good buy though as ordinary people wont be able to afford cars at all...

 

.. now who owns Raleigh .....

Edited August 30, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

Phillip Lee has defected to the LibDems, Boris doesn't have a majority now.

[fletch70]

It is going to be an interesting few days. Will BJ be defeated and if he is will he then be able to get the majority needed for an election? 

 

If Labour have any sense they will stop a no deal but let Boris go on after 31st Oct so an extension is in place. Next move would be a deal with the Lib Dems to form a coalition at a GE 

[brassnecked]

The MPs seem to forget that No Deal is the default scenario if no agreement ratified by the end of the negotiation period, that has been extended, without a further extension we are out.  Parliament cannot ban No Deal per se, EU Law is superior to UK law now, so Parliament have messed up.

[fletch70]

How exactly have they messed up. If they enshrine no nodeal in uk law and the EU won’t extend then the Government should cancel A50 

[brassnecked]

That isn't going to happen if Johnson and the Beadle's lot are still in charge.

[tobyjugg2]

2 hours ago, fletch70 said:

It is going to be an interesting few days. Will BJ be defeated and if he is will he then be able to get the majority needed for an election? 

 

If Labour have any sense they will stop a no deal but let Boris go on after 31st Oct so an extension is in place. Next move would be a deal with the Lib Dems to form a coalition at a GE 

 

I disagree

 

Johnson and his cronies will do anything and everything to throw spanners in the works.

 

As BN says, revoke is not going to happen - without a referendum

We need an extension to get to that point

and we need Johnson gone.

 

Even Corbyn for a spell is looking the lessor of 2 evils - via a coalition with the libdems.

 

 

Strangely the Tory remainers are mostly trying to save the Tory Party if you look closely.

Real Tories are in a real quandary, and a brief Corbyn coalition could do it as long as the Labour Party don't let corbyn carry on with his spoiling tactics..

If Corbyn carries on with his crap then its likely we will be quickly back in the mire.

 

 

addendum

I deliberately left out the SNP

Edited September 3, 2019 by tobyjugg2