Article 50 Discussion

[silverfox1961]

Having monitored this thread over the past few weeks, it seems some of you have ego's that will fill a room. That's fine in a personal capacity but not here. I, for one, am getting heartily sick of all this bickering which the mods then have to go in and decide what is best. That is part of our role. What we are not here for is to moderate a pi**ing contest.

 

CAG, as a community, will always get differences of opinion but if you lot don't know how to do so politely, what the hell are you doing here?

 

If you disagree, say so and put your explanation and links where there is any. if you cannot substantiate what you are saying then that is opinion, not fact.

 

Please don't make our (voluntary) work harder for us.

[buckthorn]

Having monitored this thread over the past few weeks, it seems some of you have ego's that will fill a room. That's fine in a personal capacity but not here. I, for one, am getting heartily sick of all this bickering which the mods then have to go in and decide what is best. That is part of our role. What we are not here for is to moderate a pi**ing contest.

 

CAG, as a community, will always get differences of opinion but if you lot don't know how to do so politely, what the hell are you doing here?

 

If you disagree, say so and put your explanation and links where there is any. if you cannot substantiate what you are saying then that is opinion, not fact.

 

Please don't make our (voluntary) work harder for us.

 

 

 

 

Why did you find it necessary to remove my signature Agent Provocateur

from my post No;250? While at the same time allowing a post by obiter dictum,

(post 63-Corbyn & the labour party).

 

I am beginning to wonder if there is one rule for some and another rule for others??

who contribute to the Bear garden.

 

Post aimed at me, made by OD:-I will return later, we have an Agent Provocateur, better

known as an inciting agent trying to cause trouble.

 

Its ok for him to call me that and get away with it is it?

The second part of his post well I just can’t be bothered to lower myself to comment on it,

and yet you have allowed it to remain but removed mine, why??

[buckthorn]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-britain-theresa-may-article-50-not-supposed-meant-to-be-used-trigger-giuliano-a7156656.html

 

i predict that the courts will rule that Parliament must take decisions before a minister can trigger any EU treaty clause, because the EU referendum never contained any binding authority.

 

When they get around to looking at this properly and discussing it with EU/EU country leaders, they will come to the conclusion that triggering Article 50 with a supposed 2 year period to negotiate exit, is not the best way. Instead they will negotiate UK's position with the EU and see where it goes. Because the 2 year period can be extended, it could get pretty silly with financial markets looking at a timetable and investors looking at possible ways of making short term profits. And people who voted leave would be extremely annoyed if Article 50 time period kept being extended. Better to have meaningful negotiations within the whole of the EU to decide on new treaties. Those countries not in the Euro will want to see changes anyway. The EU can't keep

putting off not negotiating treaties because countries have referendum commitments.

 

 

Theresa May has let it be know she will use executive powers to enact Article 50,

rather than allow disaffected MPs the chance to obstruct its implementation.

 

A group of over a 1,000 lawyers, led by the firm Mishcon de Reya, is threatening

legal action against this, claiming the Government has no right to invoke Article 50

without consulting Parliament—and the referendum was only ‘advisory’.

What a bl**dy nonsense their litigation will fail any way, still they should make a lot

of money out of the tax payer who will have to pay for it.

 

At no point in the passing of the referendum Bill in the Commons was it ever declared

to be merely an advisory vote.

[honeybee13]

I'm not sure why the taxpayer would be paying Mischon. I can't find a recent article, but this one from the Guardian says Mishcon are acting for anonymous clients. I wouldn't be surprised if that was big businesses.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jul/03/parliament-must-decide-whether-or-not-to-leave-the-eu-say-lawyers

 

HB

[obiter dictum]

This is taken from page 25, Chapter 5 of the Actual referendum Bill 2015-2016 from the Commons library

 

This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative,

 

which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution.

Edited August 29, 2016 by obiter dictum

[honeybee13]

OD, that's very interesting. Are you able to post a link please, as requested by Silverfox?

 

HB

[obiter dictum]

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

 

You need chapter 5 page 25

[honeybee13]

Thank you for that.

 

HB

[buckthorn]

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that there really is

no point in continuing to post in the Bear garden, it has

become so one sided, not in respect of the subjects, but

in the censorship and bias of site team members.

 

I have never been aggressive to other contributor, although

I cannot say the same about some of the other members

who contribute, (not all) who are allowed to get away with

anything, with no come-back just because

their politics is the same as the moderators.

 

I have been warned on a number of occasions, over comment

I am supposed to have made, yet other contributors have said

the same thing, and it has been allowed, this is pure victimisation,

there is a complete bias on one side, this is wrong and should

not be allowed, but then if it’s the same politics as the team

then it’s ok.

 

One of the most annoying, actions taken by the site team is to

delete part of a post thereby changing its content, with no

explanation, it seems to be a case of I can do what I want like

it or lump it.

 

Like other members who have been forced to leave because of

the I’m always right attitude of the mods, I have decided to lump it,

(not that you really care anyway) and make no more

contributions to the Bear Garden, which allows you to talk among

yourselves.

 

I also think you should change it to the Kintergarden as it much

more reflects what goes for a discussion forum.

 

I expect this post to be deleted, as that seems to be normal practise in the kindergarden.

[fletch70]

As far as I can see the words toy and Pram spring to mind.

 

Who are these other members btw?

[unclebulgaria67]

http://news.sky.com/story/japans-unprecedented-warning-to-uk-over-brexit-10564585

 

This article concerning warnings by Japan should interest everyone whether pro or anti Brexit.

 

When you think about all of the issues that affect pretty much everything across the current EU, triggering article 50 is going to be the start of a very very long process. The 2 years allowed by article 50, which can be extended is a ridiculous short period to negotiate an extremely complicated divorce. There are a huge number of businesses that operate across the UK and EU mainland which will require the UK government to obtain a deal that does not affect their businesses. Just take the Film making industry, where studios like Pinewood, will do all of the studio work and the film producers will shoot across Europe. It is easier because they employ production staff that can work across Europe, without the hassle of having separate visa requirements for each country they film in. After Brexit, it might mean that British staff working on the film in the UK have to be replaced by say French staff in France etc. They already employ some in other EU countries to make it easier on location. But after Brexit, Pinewood could lose work and people who work the film industry lose work as a result.

[fletch70]

To be honest I think May's honeymoon is well and truly over. She needs to make some tough decisions. There is still a huge body of opinion , both Tory and non that want to remain . Some will think that the decision has been made but want to remain central to Europe if separate.

 

Personally I think she has a poisoned challace and will be unable to produce anything that remotely works. How much longer has this economy got to suffer, It seems that things fell off a cliff in 2008 and have never recovered, well at least the proletariat I.e the average working/retired/sick/unemployed/student etc. It seems that every move made has been aimed at causing least harm to the wealthiest.

There is no incentive to save, and I u deist and they want us to spend our money to boost the economy but we are storing up a bigger pensions problem fir the next generation.

 

Those who have savings that they live on are not eating into those savings because investment return is so low .

 

Employers are still giving no pay rises and in some cases pay cuts .

[obiter dictum]

Unclebulgaria

 

People cannot just dismiss this from Japan as they use the UK as a gateway into the EU. The japanese as a nation are a private people and do not usually make press releases such as this unless there are real concerns at senior levels. It will only take one major company to instigate the domino effect

[unclebulgaria67]

Unclebulgaria

 

People cannot just dismiss this from Japan as they use the UK as a gateway into the EU. The japanese as a nation are a private people and do not usually make press releases such as this unless there are real concerns at senior levels. It will only take one major company to instigate the domino effect

 

Correct. Foreign businesses that have decided to base themselves in the UK have done so partly because the UK is part of an EU consumer market of 500 million people.

 

The UK is an important market, but if the conditions are not helpful after any Brexit, companies will start making decisions which are right for their businesses. You can bet that EU countries are going to start competing for companies currently based in the UK servicing EU mainland, to move to EU mainland, so they are nearer to where their consumers are.

 

Brexit will be hugely complex because behind the scenes businesses are going to be lobbying government about the negotiations and telling them what they need to continue operating in the UK. Then add on top of that you will have Trade Unions, Consumer organisations, Human Rights, Legal professionals etc, all telling government what they expect to see continue after any Brexit.

 

Theresa May won't be in a position to trigger article 50 during 2017, because there will be no agreed positions on Brexit negotiations that can be taken forward. I don't think Theresa May, Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox agree on many issues, if the media articles are accurate. If they can't agree, then the Tories won't be able to take the process forward with any conviction. At some point, Parliament will have to get involved and they can block it, if they don't think it is in the interest of the UK.

[Consumer dude]

If the politicians do not, can not or will not set the process of article 50 in motion then we live in a dictatorship so it is paramount for democracy that the will of the people is upheld..

[obiter dictum]

How can we live in a dictatorship when we are a parliamentary democracy?? It is up to the rulling executive to put these things to a parliamentary vote, not the people. We elect these people as our representatives to make those decisions on our behalf.

 

I find it strange the main argument for Brexit was UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, yet choose to ignore that fact when it does not suit then

Edited September 10, 2016 by obiter dictum

[obiter dictum]

Democracy in Britain doesn’t mean majority rule. It’s not the tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of the mob … it’s the representatives of the people, not the people themselves, who vote for them.

Government of the people, by the people, for the people

[Consumer dude]

We had a vote, the majority spoke, end of, what is the point in voting if it counts for nothing. Long live democracy and the majority will of the people..

[obiter dictum]

The vote was only advisory and has no impact on the Executive/Legislature. It was written into the actual Bill as i have referenced earlier that caveat

 

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

 

Chapter 5 page 25

[Consumer dude]

No doubt the saga will roll on and on, I actually wonder that if the result had been to remain, would the leavers be calling for a 2nd referendum. My personal opinion is that the result should stand..

[obiter dictum]

My opinion as well. No second referendum. That decision now it up to the Courts to decide next month then a Parliamentary vote if needed. That is true democracy

[determindator]

I voted in giving them the EU the benefit of the doubt, knowing of wasted money and over bloating it was a difficult decision to make. Nice idea at the beginning but it seems set to fail over all. Brexit excites me and the markets. No point in having referendums if they're not heeded. People do matter even though there are some in power who don't think so.

 

Yes I agree CD sour grapes comes to mind. What would have happened if the vote had been to stay in............

 

Shame that little word 'advisory' was never given the media attention OB then people would have seen more clearly the farce of a referendum

[Consumer dude]

I'm a simple guy, I was asked the question, in or out of the EU, I wasn't tricked, conned, misled, etc. I voted out on understanding the question. Some people didn't like the result but in an honest straight forward way, the only possible response is 'well that's life, some you win some you lose'..

[unclebulgaria67]

Brexit is not a definite and people will have to wait and see what happens.

 

In Germany people are getting fed up with immigration and Germany having to support the EU with so much money, with the possibility that they will have to bankroll tne EU much more in future years.

 

In Hungary they have a current protest going on sponsored by their government not to accept the EU quota requirement on migrants.

 

The same is happening in many countries. A backlash against the EU and pressures caused by migration.

 

It is quite possible that the EU will have to accept major reforms and a new treaty. This might happen before any Brexit and then the government will be faced with a problem. It is law in the UK to hold a referendum on EU treaties and if the EU were to produce a new EU treaty, there would have to be a new referendum.

[obiter dictum]

UncleB is bang on

 

Any new renegotiation with the EU will trigger the European Union Act and the Referendum lock will be activated. That is UK Law