E S Parking enforcement - Declaring Driver at the Time of Parking Infraction

[billinghamn]

What's the legal position with having to declare who was driving at the time a PCN was attached to my car?

 

The PCN was due to a ticket blowing upside down when closing the door. The correct amount was paid and I have the ticket that was purchased at the time.

 

So far I have received a couple of letters threatening action and the fine has increased on both occasions. I have sent the standard letter requesting information about who the landowner is etc, and I have not declared who the driver is.

 

Apologies if this is obvious but I'm relatively new to this.

[dx100uk]

who's the ticket/companies chasing

tell us the full story.

[billinghamn]

Was hoping not to declare the name of the company just in case they are monitoring the site. It's an IPC company using the IAS appeal service.

 

 

1. The driver paid for parking £3 to the end of the day. Left on the dashboard in full view, but the wind blew it upside down as the door was closed.
   
2. A PCN was left on the car - £100 charge but £50 if I paid within 14 days.
   
3. About 3 weeks later I wrote a standard letter back to the company highlighting that I was not ignoring their charge for a purported parking infraction but I needed more info before I could make an informed decision. 8 standard questions as suggested on this site. Suggested using POPLA or similar independent ADR service. Highlighted that they shouldn't send debt collection letters and not to add any costs or surcharges. Written as the registered keeper. No reply to this letter.
   
4. About 2 weeks later I received another letter highlighting charge was £100. Two options: Pay or provide the name and address of the driver. I was on holiday whilst this letter arrived.
   
5. About 2 weeks later I sent another copy of the same letter and highlighted that they hadn't responded with the requested information. Sent Royal Mail "Signed For" service. No reply to this letter.
   
6. The next day I received another letter highlighting the charge had increased to £125. Obviously crossed in the post with my response.
   
7. About a week later I sent a reply highlighting that they had still not responded to my request. This time I claimed they were wasting my time and I would start charging them every time I had to write a letter to them. So this letter included an admin charge of £100. I kept this one clear: I am the registered keeper of the vehicle and I am not liable for any parking charges. Please do not write to me again. Sent Royal Mail "Signed For" service. No reply to this letter.
   
8. Sharpish response rejecting invalid invoice.
   
9. Received a debt collection notice from ZZPS. Charge now £185.
   

What should I do now?

[armadillo71]

What's the legal position with having to declare who was driving at the time a PCN was attached to my car?

I have sent the standard letter requesting information about who the landowner is etc, and I have not declared who the driver is.

 

Apologies if this is obvious but I'm relatively new to this.

 

You have no obligation to tell a private parking company who was driving a car you are the registered keeper of.

 

I'm not relatively new to this and I don't know what the ' standard letter ' is you mention? Please enlightened.

 

 

(edit: just seen post 3.)

[billinghamn]

Thinking about it I may have got it off another site. Anyway this is the primary content ignoring address details, PCN number and company name.

I am not ignoring your charge for a purported parking infraction. As this is purely a charge (not a statutory penalty) issued under a purported contract and the driver has not been identified, I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

 

1. Who is the party that contracted with your company for the provision of their services? I require their contact details.

2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?

3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority to both issue parking charges and litigate in your own name.

4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.

5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide your justification of this sum.

6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.

7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking, please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.

8. Please provide a copy of the signs that purportedly were on site which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion.

 

If you believe you have a cause of action, send a Letter before Claim within the next 21 days and I will take advice and will respond.

 

In my opinion, there is a better alternative than legal proceedings, namely that we utilise the services of a completely independent ADR service suited to parking charges. This does not include the IAS appeal service - which lacks any transparency and possibly any independence from the IPC - unlike the alternative offered by the British Parking Association, POPLA, which is transparent and has been shown to be independent.

 

Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to those, so to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your alleged loss. In any case, the addition of any debt collector 'costs' is not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable.

 

 

[armadillo71]

Please name the PPC.

[billinghamn]

Please name the PPC.

It's ES.

[ericsbrother]

They are hoping you are scared into paying them so that is why the amount keeps going up,

they dont have a legal right to a penny so they work on the theory that getting hung for a sheep

is the same as being hung for a lamb.

 

Now, in the real world of parking in council car parks and on public highways

proof of paying the prescribed fee usually gets the PCN cancelled as you can show that the prescribed fee was paid

and any action would then be "de minimis".

 

However, a PENALTY charge is set to encourage you to abide by the rules

so the council can still enforce the penalty charge.

 

Private land parking charges are designed differently and provide the only source of income for many parking co's

so a court will not often side with a company that decides to go all out

to make money when the main contractual obligation of paying the prescribed fee to enjoy the facility is adhered to.

 

All you wrote to them about contractual charges and damages for breaches is largely redundant

as far as schedule of losses go, a flat fee that is not "unconscionable" is OK

but you are right about whether it is a charge for breaching a contractual term

or the sum due under a contract and the wording on the signage makes the difference

there so tell us what the signs say and we can advise as to whether this is a road worth travelling.

 

The content and wording of the NTK is often not compliant with the requirements of the PoFA to create a keeper liability so knowing what that said will be a boon to us.

[billinghamn]

The first NTK is below:

 

The second NTK is very similar:

 

And finally the debt collection letter:

[dx100uk]

there are no T&C anywhere displayed that allows for any additional debt collection charges

load of bowlarks

 

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

The original NTK would be compliant IF the signage at the site makes it perfectly clear that the incorrect displaying of the receipt for the parking fee is an absolute must as the supposed breach of the parking conditions is quoting 2 different things and hoping they will be read as being the same.

So, picture of signage ( and parking meter wording if different-that often undoes a claim)

[billinghamn]

There are two signs at the car park. Main one:

 

 

Second one:

 

[dx100uk]

where's that second blue sign?

 

 

they should not be using the words

penalty charge notice

 

 

only council/police can use those words.

[billinghamn]

where's that second blue sign?

 

 

they should not be using the words

penalty charge notice

 

 

only council/police can use those words.

 

The second blue sign is a separate sign on the edge of the car park. I guess it's placed there to make sure people see it as they walk out of the car park.

[dx100uk]

oh dear...

 

 

dx

[renegadeimp]

If its related to ES parking, theyve just got themselves into a whole world of trouble.

[ericsbrother]

so a penalty charge of £60 if you dont agree to pay the £100 breach of contract chagre?

Hmmm.

[billinghamn]

Any helpful suggestions as to what I should do next? Expecting another debt collection letter any time..

[Bazooka Boo]

The first sign clearly states that it is the driver liable for the parking charge! What crayons are they giving the toddler group to make these signs??

 

I don't see how the keeper can have any liability, when they have so blatantly shot themselves in the foot with their pre school sign?

[billinghamn]

The first sign clearly states that it is the driver liable for the parking charge! What crayons are they giving the toddler group to make these signs??

 

I don't see how the keeper can have any liability, when they have so blatantly shot themselves in the foot with their pre school sign?

 

So are you suggesting that as long as I stick to not declaring who the driver is, that I will be able to avoid the penalty?

 

 

I thought there was some recent guidelines or legal change that allows parking companies to chase the registered keeper if they don't declare who the driver was at the time the car was parked?

[ericsbrother]

The law on keeper liability is clear and the Beavis decision did not change that one jot.

The parking co's like to tell people that after Beavis they can do what they want

but that is not true, never as been and never will be.

 

dont forget, dca's can do nothing so ignore them completely.

The parking co is wasting their money but if you start to respond to a dca they thnk you are a waverer

and will never leave you alone.

 

 

Some solicitors act as dca's and they can be ignored when working in that capacity.

Pet rentathreats are Gladstones (owners of the IPC and IAS), Miah, Wright Hassal, BW legal.

 

 

only ever respond to a lba from any of these clowns and then just to let them know you arent paying and court will cost them.

 

 

They lose their clients money whne they get a defended claim

but most people just buckle when they get the threatogram so they arent bothered that much.

[billinghamn]

Next debt collection letter:

 

 

 

What should I do next? Ignore this letter and wait for the letter from Wright Hassall?

[Bazooka Boo]

Ha ha ha, IGNORE!!

 

I'd like to see what credit agreement you signed that says they can add charges onto an already unenforceable invoice!

 

What fools.

 

For further reassurance, read Ericsbrothers post again.

[billinghamn]

Ha ha ha, IGNORE!!

 

I'd like to see what credit agreement you signed that says they can add charges onto an already unenforceable invoice!

 

What fools.

 

For further reassurance, read Ericsbrothers post again.

 

I'll ignore for the time being in that case. Thanks for the advice.

[dx100uk]

ZZPS powerless DCA

they nor any DCA

are NOT BAILIFFS

 

 

dx