ESA - Lost Tribunal - Upper Tribunal Awarded...UT Postponed!!!!

[honeybee13]

Hello Max.

 

Have you read up on the Shaw Trust here? If you type the words 'shaw trust' into the CAG search box in the red strip at the top of the screen, you can find previous threads about them.

 

HB

[Chester6]

Shaw Trust does a lot

But I think it's wise to be wary and ask questions if they don't know why you were referred

Plus do you have any written proof of why you are there or what it's called you were referred for?

I have heard that WP etc is supposedly voluntary until you sign something so this idea of voluntary isn't what you think it means

I got told when on CWP which isn't voluntary that I should describe it as volunteering

[Max1968]

Thanks to you both.

 

 

honeybee13 yep I have read a few of the posts re Shaw Trust but most of them seem to be from people on DLA or ESA and actually placed into a work group from what I can tell.

 

 

I was referred (or asked if I would like to speak to the disability advisor) as far as I can tell purely because of my disabilities and I was told they might be able to help with advice and support for things as I said like CV's, Interview technique and the like. Nothing was stated about unpaid work.

 

 

I am wary now because of the underhand tactics from the DWP and the untruths stated in my WCA. In my Doctor's eyes I am still not fit for work so standing around packing shelves and getting paid for it wouldn't be possible let alone not getting paid for it. Plus it's to do with any travel expenses etc to get to a place of work. If you aren't getting paid then that's additional financial loss that I can't afford.

 

 

The Computer Course however is a good idea and I have heard you can get help with this financially if you are out of work so a qualification is a good idea for the future so I am certainly not being negative about ideas and help but I am just concerned that if I was to turn down for instance 5 hours of voluntary work in a charity shop I would lose my JSA as well.

[Nystagmite]

They can't make you do anything that would affect your health. So, if you had to turn down voluntary work and said you can't do it because of your health or it would make a health condition worse, you can't be sanctioned. It's not as if you're saying you can't be bothered.

[Max1968]

Chester, I have now read the confirmation email properly and there is a line saying,

 

 

"I am delighted to confirm that you have been referred to the Work Choice programme by your Advisor at your Job Centre."

And there I was thinking it was just an unofficial chat!! Not quite sure what to do about this now.

[Shoelover]

I would be inclined to go along to the interview just to find out what it's all about. If you then feel that you are unable to go through with it you will at least be able to say that you went along to get more information to aid an informed decision.

[reallymadwoman]

Agree with the previous post, but be careful if you're asked to sign anything.

 

Also, just in case, perhaps a written complaint to the jobcentre before you attend that you were not aware that you'd be referred to anything, 'work choice' wasn't mentioned at all, and you have no idea what is involved or whether it will be suitable in view of your limitations.

[Chester6]

Dunno if you've read the link so I thought I'd provide it

http://www.shaw-trust.org.uk/individuals/helping-you-prepare-for-employment/work-choice/

Below makes it sound like it's your choice?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/494341/work-choice-section3.pdf

 

Reading it it does sound like the aim is 16 hour jobs so I am not sure if it's for you as you said you can't work at present

[Max1968]

Thanks for all that much appreciated.

 

 

Chester, yes I read that and interestingly it says nothing about work being "unpaid".

 

 

I will attend the "meeting" but won't sign anything. My main concern is that if I were to turn down any offered voluntary work it would affect my JSA and I would be sanctioned.

[reallymadwoman]

There are ways and means of making sure that even if you're offered something, they decide you're unsuitable. Especially when the first thing you do is describe the effects of every medical condition you've ever had.

[Max1968]

Hi all. Another question if I may?

 

 

Over the weekend things have taken a turn for the worse. My vertigo which had slowly been improving has come back with a vengeance and yesterday I had two major attacks which lasted two hours and one hour respectively. This is unusual as most attacks come on quickly and subside after a few minutes, leaving me very wobbly, but things don't spin permanently,. These new attacks were permanent spinning for the whole duration until eventually they subsided. Very frightening because on both occasions they felt that they would never stop. Only thing I could do was lie down and close my eyes. A real game changer and I will have to go back and see my GP again to see what on earth is wrong.

 

 

Thing is I had an email and text last week re my Mandatory Reconsideration decision. They said they would notify me by 6th July. Obviously I want to let them know about my new symptoms, and ideally in writing, but I am not quite sure who to contact or how to go about it. I know there is a DWP telephone number but as I say I am not sure the best way about going about this so hopefully someone can advise?

 

 

Thank you.

[Nystagmite]

Personally, I'd inform them about things like this in writing.

[Shoelover]

I'd do it by phone and then confirm in a letter

[Max1968]

Well I phoned up and by all accounts a decision re Mandatory Reconsideration has been made,. No change in their original decision..... The girl however said she would get someone to call me regarding the worsening symptoms but I must say I don't hold out much hope. Just can't believe it (or maybe I can!!), al that info along with a Doctors letter requesting a change of decision, consultant reports, a mountain of evidence turned down by some little [edited] in a suit!!

 

 

No idea where I go from here, because who is going to employ me if I need to lie down for two hours every time these bloody attacks happen!

Edited June 27, 2016 by honeybee13
Inappropriate comments.

[Nystagmite]

The next stage is tribunal. But they only go on what you were like at the time of the original assessment and not now.

[Max1968]

The next stage is tribunal. But they only go on what you were like at the time of the original assessment and not now.

 

 

Yeah I just found that out. DWP rang earlier with some bloke on the phone who didn't have a clue about my case but he did pass message on to Milton Keynes who made the decision. A lady just called and explained that the letter I will receive is quite in depth as to the reasons why my mandatory reconsideration has been refused. It came across however that it's what you can do, not what you can't do that's the reason. So basically if in a 24 hour period if I spend 4 hours with a vertigo attack, 5 hours recovering from that attack and 8 hours in bed then it's only the remaining 7 hours they are worried about, hence then deemed fit for work!! She pretty much agreed with me when I said who will employ me when I might need to lie down for two hours in the middle of a working day?! It beggars belief.

 

 

She did say in her opinion I should potentially go to tribunal and also make a new claim because of the deterioration in symptoms. She also pretty much said that the health professional at the assessment is considered a higher rep than your GP because they can distinguish between what you can and can't do where a GP will only look at your medical conditions. It really is incredible.

A couple of extra questions if I may?

 

 

1. I have heard that tribunals can take quite a long time to go through the system and in the meantime I believe you return to receiving the starting rate ESA payment. Does this mean that you then do not have to sign on at the Job Centre?

 

 

2. Obviously with my conditions (Vertigo and Insomnia) I am hoping that despite suffering for 8 odd months now at some stage a treatment can be found or they will get better as time goes on. If say the tribunal is set for 5 months time and I somehow managed to recover in say 3 months is it a major issue in withdrawing your request for a tribunal? Are there any implications to doing that?

 

 

Thank you all for your help.

[Nystagmite]

Unless it's changed, once you've received your mandatory reconsideration, (that's what youve just received) you can reclaim ESA. But you need to send in fit notes from your GP.

[antone]

 

1. I have heard that tribunals can take quite a long time to go through the system and in the meantime I believe you return to receiving the starting rate ESA payment. Does this mean that you then do not have to sign on at the Job Centre?

 

 

2. Obviously with my conditions (Vertigo and Insomnia) I am hoping that despite suffering for 8 odd months now at some stage a treatment can be found or they will get better as time goes on. If say the tribunal is set for 5 months time and I somehow managed to recover in say 3 months is it a major issue in withdrawing your request for a tribunal? Are there any implications to doing that?

 

 

Thank you all for your help.

 

1) You can return to claiming ESA once you have submitted your appeal to the HM Tribunals Service and they have acknowledged receipt. Since you now know that the MR has not been favourable to you, you should do this as soon as you receive written confirmation of the MR decision from the DWP. Once your ESA claim restarts you will not have to sign on, though you may be asked to attend occasional appointments at the Jobcentre. It used to be that these appointments were not to take place more often than once a month - I don't know if this has changed. You do need medical certificates/Fit Notes from your doctor.

 

2) It is not at all difficult to withdraw an appeal if your condition improves and you no longer need to claim ESA. However, I'd think carefully before doing that. The Tribunal will be looking at the situation as it was when your WCA assessment took place, and if it finds in your favour you might be entitled to some backdated money, even if your claim has closed in the time between the WCA and the appeal. If you do choose to withdraw your appeal, you would just write a letter to the Tribunals Service saying that.

[Max1968]

Thanks for that. Re the fit/sick notes though, when the first decision was made to stop my ESA and I went on to JSA the DWP wrote to my GP and told him not to give me any more fit notes?! So now if I go to tribunal they will now say I need them?

 

 

Would I need them to go to tribunal or only if I make a NEW ESA claim with my symptoms getting worse?

[antone]

You would need fit notes in either case. The letter the DWP sends to GPs when someone fails the WCA is a form letter and it says something like "you do not need to issue any more fit notes to this patient in respect of this condition unless the patient decides to appeal against our decision." You may need to point that part out to the GP.

[Max1968]

Thank you .

[Nystagmite]

Have you sat down with someone and gone through the descriptors to see where you score points? You need at least 15. You need to be able to repeat the task in a timely and safe manner.

[Max1968]

Have you sat down with someone and gone through the descriptors to see where you score points? You need at least 15. You need to be able to repeat the task in a timely and safe manner.

 

 

Yep been there done that. In my report responding to their original report I stated the response "reliably, repeatedly and safely" many times to no avail.

 

The problem I have is that if I am feeling 80%, which is as high as it gets these days, many tasks outlined in the descriptors I am fine with. I can make a sandwich, walk and do a bit of housework with no real problem. The issues come with a vertigo attack and in the middle of one of those I cannot make a sandwich, walk or do any housework. So it's a major quandary because my answer to the questions on the original form were "various" because that's what it is.

 

Once in a while I may go out with my other half for a meal, or to the cinema, or do a bit of housework or go for a walk. But it isn't a "typical day" as to what the report suggested. And there is always the risk of an attack coming on. We once went to the cinema and had to turn around and come home because I suffered an attack so it is impossible to predict.

 

As I stated to them - "The Health Assessment was an hour long with on the whole fairly simple tasks. The assessment criteria is totally different than living day to day with constant balance issues, vertigo attacks and extreme fatigue and exhaustion caused by not having a natural nights sleep in over 7 months. Sleeping medication also has side effects of day after fatigue so I am constantly tired and fatigued.

May I also once again state that the report has NOT showed what a “typical day of mine is”. My days vary dramatically depending on how I feel physically and mentally. There is no crystal ball, no early predictor on how I will feel, my life is very unplanned due to the nature of my conditions so there really is NO “typical day”. A typical day currently does not exist for me. Unfortunately the report has taken things that I may manage to do from time to time and merged them together as a typical day but may I again stress that this is not the case."

Therefore I am trying to outline to them as to why I and my GP consider myself not fit to work. Maybe 50% of the time I may well be fit to work but the other 50% I am not and as stated to them I have no crystal ball. An attack can last two minutes or two hours and that is the difficulty I have because as I said before who is going to employ someone who may have to lie down at work for two hours or phone up in the morning to say I can't come in due to dizziness or fail to be able to do any job tasks because of an attack,. What if I fall down the stairs at work and hurt myself or someone else, who is liable?! If you found an understanding employer then ok possibly doable but the chances of someone agreeing to that are negligible. I already had a job phone call last week and as soon as I mentioned that I had vertigo and insomnia the call didn't go much further.

I would be better off with the DWP if I was permanently in a vertigo attack because I wouldn't be able to do anything at all.

My problem is quite literally 50% of the time I hold my hands up I wouldn't score any points, but 50% of the time I would or should score over 15.

It's one thing them finding you fit for work, it's another thing finding an employer who will accept my conditions and make sensible allowances for it.

This I suspect will be my problem at any Tribunal. If I am having a good day then I will sit there looking like a normal person. If I have a bad day I wouldn't even be able to get there. The descriptors in my opinion do not take into account variable unpredictable conditions, only permanent all day long conditions.

 

[Max1968]

Well I have today received two letters from the DWP.

 

One from my Disability advisor inviting me for an interview on 18th July despite already arranging me one on 11th July>?! Asking me to bring in everything I have done to find a job including a list of jobs I have considered, jobs I have applied for, the employers I have contacted and the interviews I have attended. They don't give you a break do they!!!!

 

Also received the Mandatory Reconsideration Notice refusal. That's a sweet bundle of joy!! I am absolutely staggered that they consider unpredictable vertigo attacks as "controlled" and "controllable". Quite honestly I think all the fight has left me know because if they ignore GP and Consultant evidence I think I am fighting a losing battle. I think I will just try and get a job, (if anyone will employ me) and when the first accident happens due to a vertigo attack just take legal advice on who to sue, then maybe just maybe someone would listen, although I doubt it because these parasites have got away with it with people in a far worse situation than I.

 

I have attached my Mandatory Reconsideration decision in the box below. Obviously I have deleted names etc. I would appreciate if someone could maybe cast an eye over it and advise me if they think it is worth my while going to Tribunal or just waving the white flag!!

 

Thank you.

[Max1968]

Hopefully the attachments will show up. Although not necessarily in the correct order!