Ethical parking breach charge

[Dom69]

Hi

 

I know there are lots of articles on here and other sites about this with conflicting information, and the laws have changed a bit in the last year but I was hoping for some help for where I stand.

Just moved into new flat and parked my Motorbike on some empty ground opposite so as not to use up any of the residents minimal street parking spaces. This morning I came out to find a Contractural Breach Charge on my seat (not stuck on). I looked around and EPM have put some signs up on the back wall but with no lighting and I couldn't see them when I got there last night. There are no bays marked out and no entrance or exit, it is just some empty land next to the side street and I was tucked up against a tree. The side street is council permit parking only between 9-6 Mon-Sat.

It appears the advice is no longer to ignore them but if it had been windy this morning, I wouldn't have even found the ticket.

It states it was observed for only 10 minutes and 9 seconds, colour not recorded, and the location is noted as a Solicitor's 2 streets away. Doesn't have my street name on it anywhere.

I know this is an invoice etc but I clearly did not accept entry to any contract by parking there as the sign proclaims.

What is the best course now, appeal to EPM then POPLA?

 

Thanks

Dom

[armadillo71]

Can you post up a picture of the nearest sign please, and a redacted copy of the ticket?

 

 

Make no contact with EPM yet.

[Dom69]

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Worthing,+West+Sussex+BN11+3DR/@50.810764,-0.368681,3a,75y,45.56h,67.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_kebhDDLtjYChj5jpHNQGA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x4875a28267ea5e49:0x69ffa4342581b78e

 

Bike was just next to the tree on the left where that bicycle is by the grey car. Signage on far wall.

How do i attach a jpeg?

[ericsbrother]

For the moment dont do anything as parking company has to wait 28 days to issue a notice to keeper and then only alloed another 28 days after that to do so otherwise no keeper liability (so NTK has to arrive between 29 and 56 dasys after the event). In the meanwhile see if you can find out who owns the land as I can see several different signs on the walls behind the hardstanding and some still mention clamping but I cant read them well enough to see if they are compliant. get a decent picture of the signs so we can offer an opinion on their legitimacy regarding the CoP for parking signs.

Lots to defeat these things on but always best to get all of the info to hand before responding to them.

[Dom69]

Thanks for that, will do.

I know from reading the sign it just states it is managed by EPM. Nothing about ownership anywhere.

How can I upload the picture of the ticket? The insert image tile asks for a URL. Can I just upload a jPEG?

[ericsbrother]

No, a jpeg will come out too small. look at other postings or in the library to see how to upload images. Generally it is via an image hosting site.

The signs wont say who owns the land but it can only be either the large building behind or the houses opposite. If the latter then each and every landowner must give premission for EPL to act as their agents, not just the freeholder in the case of shared rights. Most leaseholders dont know this so go along with what they are told by their managing agent (and get ripped off to boot).

[Dom69]

Ticket

[Dom69]

Made an anonymous call to a few companies in the area and the land is owned by neither the housing members or the building behind the sign.

The solicitors based two streets away with no direct access told me they own some parking spaces there but were surprised to hear their name was being used on tickets and, 'as far as they know' they receive no money from these.

[ericsbrother]

Then there is an interesting contractual matter to raise when it come to that time. That is a couple of steps away so be patient.

[ploddertom]

You need to convert your image to a PDF remembering to obliterate all personal identifiers.

[Dom69]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ethical+parking+management+sign&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=NvLJVMvED9jfasTNgrgD&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1745&bih=868&dpr=1.1#imgdii=_&imgrc=0gl9DNfivdDENM%253A%3Bh38iXDn-6hN3zM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi57.tinypic.com%252F24nju3l.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforums.pepipoo.com%252Flofiversion%252Findex.php%252Ft86630.html%3B1600%3B1200

 

This is the sign in the parking area.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ethical+parking+management&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=9vjJVKOCK-Pd7gaRx4CYDQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1745&bih=868#tbm=isch&q=ethical+parking+management+sign&imgdii=_&imgrc=gayupvh-bQ67eM%253A%3Bh38iXDn-6hN3zM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi41.tinypic.com%252F2ch1fee.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforums.pepipoo.com%252Flofiversion%252Findex.php%252Ft86630.html%3B1200%3B1600

 

And this is an exact template of the charge notice they give out.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Dom69

[armadillo71]

As already said, wait for the NTK to arrive in the post. This must be between 29-56 days of the event.

 

 

This will be an easy win at POPLA (if it gets that far), on signage, lack of standing and most probably GPEOL.

 

 

They think by putting the word contractual on the ticket, it is a contractual charge. It is not.

 

 

They admit that by stating 'complying with terms and conditions' and then actually calling it ' breach charge', that it for breach of contract, so must represent a Genuine Pre Estimate Of Loss...

 

 

Which it does not.

[ericsbrother]

They will lose because they wont be able to showa contract with landowner that assigns the right to make leagl claims in their own name. Your enquiry with solicitors proves that one so the land is not contiguous and they must have contracts for every square inch or no dice.

[Dom69]

Hi again

 

So the Notice To Driver arrived yesterday.

The date on the letter is 23/3/15 - exactly 56 days from issue

The post mark on the envelope is 24/3/15 - 57 days from issue

And the letter arrived yesterday 26/3/15 - 59 days from issue

 

Do I need to respond as surely they have missed the deadline?

 

Cheers

Dom

[ericsbrother]

they are too late. File away the letter and envelope and if they write again tell them that they were too late in contacting you for keeper liability and no further correspondence will be entered into, further demands will be treated as harassment.

[armadillo71]

Hi again

 

So the Notice To Driver arrived yesterday.

The date on the letter is 23/3/15 - exactly 56 days from issue

The post mark on the envelope is 24/3/15 - 57 days from issue

And the letter arrived yesterday 26/3/15 - 59 days from issue

 

Do I need to respond as surely they have missed the deadline?

 

Cheers

Dom

 

Are they claming keeper liability under schedule 4 of the POFA 2012?

[Dom69]

There's no mention of that specific schedule or POFA 2012?

[ericsbrother]

they are too late, either tell them to foxtrot oscar or ignore them. I suggest the latter as it will save you time and a stamp.

[Dom69]

They have been in touch again.

I did send a letter (couldn't help myself, sorry) stating a few points about the area, and that they had left it too long to contact me and any further communication would be deemed as harassment.

They have said they issued correctly and are unable to cancel. £100 to be paid by 26/5/15, extra recovery costs to be added if late.

Should I make a POPLA appeal now or just ignore it? This should all be irrelevant right?

 

Thanks

Dom

[ericsbrother]

You cant go to POPLA as the time has passed. they wont do anything that can do them any favours and they know it.

The reason they have been back in touch is because you wrote to them and they now see you as a mug who may well pay up even though you know there is no reason to do so.

[Dom69]

Respond or ignore?

[ericsbrother]

Ignore

[Dom69]

Just an update

They've been in touch again, with a similar letter. '28 days to pay' and all the usual.

My only issue is their sentence on passing it on to a debt recovery service if unpaid as I am in the middle of a mortgage application and don't need anything on my credit report.

Can they even do that considering there is no legal debt?

[DragonFly1967]

Don't worry about the debt collection agency, they've got less teeth than your average budgie.

 

It's a standard procedure in the 'let's see who we can fleece this week' stakes.

 

If a PPC were to follow every stage it would go something like this...

 

1. Ticket on the windscreen. (or ANPR capture).

1a. If a ticket on the windscreen, a Notice to Keeper between 29 and 56 days later.

1b. If ANPR a Notice to Keeper within 14 days.

 

2. Around 14 days after the NtK arrives, you'll get "Notice to Keeper - Reminder"

 

3. Around 14 days after 2, you'll get "Notice to Keeper - FINAL REMINDER"

 

When they realise that you're not playing ball...

 

4. Debt recovery letter (usually DR+) adding around £50 to the debt.

 

5. Debt recovery letter, reminder. Last chance to pay. At this stage it'll be about £160.

 

6. Debt recovery letter... We're warning you, we'll tell teacher to take you to court.

 

7. Debt recovery letter... OK, we'll give you one more chance, and we'll 'reduce' the price to around £120. If you don't pay us now, we're going to sulk. We'll also tell our paymasters that you've not buckled.

 

8. MAYBE.. A letter from a company called Zenith Collections. Another reduced payment offer, might be even less than #7. They're getting desperate to get some money out of you now. And you can tell.

 

9. If you're really unlucky, you'll get a Letter Before Action/Claim.

 

It's only at this point that you need to concern yourself, as they *might* issue a county court claim. I say might, because some, even at this point, are still busy trying to think of ways to get you to roll over and pay up.

 

 

You'll have to have gone through ALL of the stages above, plus them actually issuing a claim, taking you to court AND winning against you before you get a judgement, and then you have 14 days to pay (if you've lost) before that judgement is registered as a CCJ which could affect your credit rating.

 

Until you've been to court, lost and then not paid up, there is no legally enforceable debt that they can put on your credit file.

 

 

In the whole of 2014, Ethical Parking Management issued 16 (Sixteen) county court claims, so you're going to need to be mighty unlucky for them to actually bother. Every time they take someone to court, even if they win, they lose money

[ericsbrother]

Debt recovery is some twonk sending you a letter asking you to pay them a sum that is usually more than the original demand without any reason as to why it has gone up or what right they have to demand it. Ignore them, they cant do anything that your cat cant do.