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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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court claim asking for amount plus 'costs'? **Claim Discontinued**


Buel10
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Plenty of time then yet...lets have a further review say mid week next...you may in the meantime send an email stating that the claimant has failed to comply with directions dated xxxxx.

Ideally this should be by way of an application and fee....but the game is to get the court to do it of their own accord.

We could do with some help from you.

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Yes indeed:wink:

We could do with some help from you.

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Hi Andy,

Just a quick one - The court today told my friend that they have issued a letter to him and the claimant explaining that the claimant has to supply the documents by March 5th or the claim will get struck out. I am frankly surprised by these 'extended' deadlines they have been given.

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Benefit of doubt Buel...but dont worry it will be struck out.:wink:

We could do with some help from you.

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  • 2 weeks later...

SUCCESS!!!!!!! :lol::jaw::madgrin:

 

AC Roof Trusses contacted the court to say that they wanted to discontinue the claim. They still haven't let my friend know this though and we only know as we rang the court. Still, what bloomin' wonderful news!!

 

You know why 'we' won? Because of YOU, Andy!!! Being 'in the right' kind of helped, Lol, but your help has been invaluable and we will be making a contribution to this site this week.

 

Seriously Andy, it's people like you that give me hope in the kindness of people!!!

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As soon as you receive confirmation from the court, I suggest you submit a schedule of your costs and disbursements (copied to the other side) and ask for a wasted costs order!

On some things I am very knowledgeable, on other things I am stupid. Trouble is, sometimes I discover that the former is the latter or vice versa, and I don't know this until later - maybe even much later. Read anything I write with the above in mind.

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SUCCESS!!!!!!! :lol::jaw::madgrin:

 

AC Roof Trusses contacted the court to say that they wanted to discontinue the claim. They still haven't let my friend know this though and we only know as we rang the court. Still, what bloomin' wonderful news!!

 

You know why 'we' won? Because of YOU, Andy!!! Being 'in the right' kind of helped, Lol, but your help has been invaluable and we will be making a contribution to this site this week.

 

Seriously Andy, it's people like you that give me hope in the kindness of people!!!

 

 

Excellent...delighted that this has been resolved for your friend Buel

 

Thread title amended to reflect the outcome.

 

Regards

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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As soon as you receive confirmation from the court, I suggest you submit a schedule of your costs and disbursements (copied to the other side) and ask for a wasted costs order!

 

Oh Gosh I would like to do that, it has taken up sooo much of my/my friend's time.

 

Andy, is this possible please?

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No its small claims track and CPR 38 does not apply.

We could do with some help from you.

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  • 5 months later...

Hi - an unfortunate update:

 

As stated,

A C Roof Trusses never did follow up with their court claim:

something that my friend and I are both eternally grateful to Andy for (my friend made a decent contribution to the site).

 

However, in order for my friend to get his building 'passed off' by the local planning department,

he needs the 'calculations' for the roof trusses that were provided by A C Roof Trusses.

He wrote to them to ask them for them and

 

on 24 June the reply came back of:

 

"Whilst the cost of the calculations for the timber frame is included in the quotation, the cost for the roof truss calculations are not.

These incur an additional fee of £250+VAT and as such please find enclosed our invoice for the supply of these.

Once payment has been received in full, the calculations will be issued'.

 

However, on the FAQ page of their website, it states that 'the truss calculations and layout drawings' are provided free of charge'.

 

 

Please see here:

http://www.acrooftrusses.co.uk/faq

 

Since then he has sent them the following letter:

 

'Thank you for your letter dated 24th June 2015.

You stated ‘Whilst the cost of the calculations for the timber frame is included in the quotation,

the cost for the roof truss calculations are not’.

 

 

Yet one of the reasons we chose you in the first place was that on your website’s FAQs,

it states:

 

Q. Do you provide drawings or calculations?

 

A. Once an order has been delivered to site we can provide truss/floor beam calculations and layout drawings free of charge.

 

Please can I ask why this is not the case with my order?

If this is not the case with my order,

please can I ask you to provide supporting documentation?'

 

He has not received a reply to this letter and being as it was signed for, we know they received it.

 

We did contacted the Trussed Rafter Association

after many emails exchanged,

 

 

ultimately they replied with this:

'With regard to your complaint against AC Roof Trusses and your request that the TRA solve your problem.

 

Given what you say in your e-mail of 14 August,

it would appear to be necessary to explain the exact nature of the Trussed Rafter Association and what it can do.

It is a trade association and not an ombudsman, a regulator or a tribunal.

 

 

As such it is not set up to resolve claims, and has no teeth to force a member to comply with a request such as yours.

The most that might be achieved would be for your complaint to result in a disciplinary proceeding.

 

 

To have any credibility, the process would require all of the issues pertaining to the case to be understood by the TRA board

, and in the light of that evidence to make a decision on which of the outcomes proscribed in our articles of association is pertinent.

 

 

Please be clear that none of them can result in the TRA forcing a member to send out a set of calculations.

 

In terms of alternative sources for the calculations, there are no easy or free ways for these to be obtained.

AC Roof Trusses have undertaken the software design work required to achieve these calculations for your specific roof.

The only alternatives appear to be to engage an independent structural engineer, or to ask a different supplier to repeat this design work.

In either case there will be significant charges for the work required.'

 

 

Please can I ask for your help with this?

 

 

Is there a way that I can take court action on this to force/persuade them to provide the calculations my friend needs?

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Have you explained to Planning the history behind this why they wont provide the calcs Buel ? They may intervene.

 

Looks like your friend is stuck between a rock and a hard place here as the supplier is being vindictive..

 

You either use the original drawings and engage a Structural Engineer or equivalent.

 

Pay the fee and then litigate for breach of contract.Once planning has passed.

 

Use on line free calcs software to replicate...not sure if planning would accept though.

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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One of many if you search Truss Calcs....

 

http://www.selecttrusses.com/truss-calculator/

We could do with some help from you.

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Hi, I don't know if this will help or not.

 

You could send them a Subject Access Request and with that, they should send you everything they have connected to you. They should have a Data Protection Schedule in place. This costs a tenner.

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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  • 2 weeks later...
Hi, I don't know if this will help or not.

 

You could send them a Subject Access Request and with that, they should send you everything they have connected to you. They should have a Data Protection Schedule in place. This costs a tenner.

 

Hi there.

 

That is very interesting, thank you. Any other thoughts on whether this will work?

 

In the meantime....

 

This is what my friend sent them last week:

 

Dear Mrs XXXX,

I wrote to you on 7th August 2015 asking you why you are claiming that

‘the cost of the calculations for the timber frame is included in the quotation,

the cost for the roof truss calculations are not’,

 

 

when it states clearly on your own website

 

 

‘Once an order has been delivered to site we can provide truss/floor beam calculations and layout drawings free of charge.’

 

I also asked you to provide supporting documentation to explain why you are claiming

that you need to charge me for these, apparently, free calculations.

 

Please can you reply to me by either explaining this or providing the roof truss calculations?

 

I am obliged to inform you that I have found two other previous customers of A C Roof Trusses

who received their calculations for no additional fee and that should you not supply me with the calculations

that your own website says you will (for no extra cost) within 7 days,

then I will resume my correspondence with Jill Insley from The Sunday Times 'Question Of Money' supplement

 

 

I shall pass on all my communications, both sent and received, regarding this unfortunate situation.

I will also be forced to contact Trading Standards.

I sincerely hope we can resolve this and both go our separate ways and move on.

Yours sincerely,

 

Today, he received this:

 

And just for the record, the contract actually stated 'payment on delivery'....but that's semantics, I guess.

 

So, what to do now then......please can I ask for any advice on this rather unfortunate letter?

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Hi Buel responding to your PM

 

Think they are smart dont they ? I will take a closer look in the morning and give you my opinion on how to proceed.

 

Regards

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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Just to remind you of the true timeline of events, this might help refresh a few things. I have yet to add the details of the court case they withdrew from:

Time line:

 

2014

July 4: Ordered goods and paid 20% (£1218.56). I was promised work would commence immediately and take two days to complete.

 

Early August: Bob Pritchard had to chase AC Roof Trusses for a delivery date, this was given as August 22nd.

August 22: No goods delivered.

August 22: I, Gary Pritchard, went to see AC Roof Trusses and they told me that the goods would 'definitely be delivered by the end of next week', being August 29th.

August 29: No goods delivered.

 

September 2: Incomplete order (Timber Frame) delivered.

September 8: Claimant claims goods were delivered.

September 10: Completed goods/order actually arrived (Driver did not ask for payment nor provide balance invoice or any invoice at all).

September 13: Sent letter to claimant requesting invoice (Recorded delivery).

 

October 2: Sent second letter to claimant requesting invoice (Recorded delivery).

October 2: Claimant issued claim.

October 4: Received letter from claimant with two invoices, both with same date but one with amount outstanding and other with amount outstanding plus interest and court fees. Also received Court Claim.

October 9: Cheque sent for amount outstanding minus interest and court fees (Recorded Delivery).

October 10: Cheque cashed.

October 15: Cheque cleared.

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Well, i've got to say that they worded their t&c very carefully.

Imo they're quite within their rights to refuse disclosure of the calculations.

They cost anything between £600 and £1200 from freelance engineers.

They still feel that you owe them money and whether this is correct or not, the calculations were not part of the contract unfortunately.

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Hi Andy,

 

Would you agree with king12345? Just a guess here but would getting the calculations done by a professional and then claiming the cost from AC be an option at all? Or am I way off....

 

Hi Andy,

 

Would you agree with king12345? Just a guess here but would getting the calculations done by a professional and then claiming the cost from AC be an option at all? Or am I way off....

 

Hi there Andy.

 

I hope you don't mind me bumping this thread.

 

Thank you - B

 

Hi Andy,

I've just triend to PM you but your PM box is apparently full.

Hope this helps,

Buel

 

Hi Andy,

 

Is all okay?

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  • 3 weeks later...
Well, i've got to say that they worded their t&c very carefully.

Imo they're quite within their rights to refuse disclosure of the calculations.

They cost anything between £600 and £1200 from freelance engineers.

They still feel that you owe them money and whether this is correct or not, the calculations were not part of the contract unfortunately.

 

Assuming their Terms and Conditions are as watertight as King refers to above then any attempt to litigate may be futile.Taking that into account and if external fees are as above then £250 may be the better deal and you would just have to swallow your pride...unless you can get a similar external quote.

 

Regards

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

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You may find some assistance from the law of 'implied terms' - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_terms_in_English_law. It sounds ridiculous that you could have a contract for someone to build a roof but not provide the drawings needed to get planning approval for the roof.

 

Contract law says that terms will be implied into a contract if they are necessary to give effect to the reasonable expectations of the parties. If it is true that you cannot get your roof signed off by planning without the drawings, it sounds to me like it would be an implied term of the contract that the drawings would be provided. This would be especially strong if common practice in the roofing industry is to provide the drawings.

 

I also think that the Supply of Services and Goods Act 1982 implies a term into your contract that the goods provided during the service must be fit for purpose. If you are not provided with the drawings necessary to get planning sign-off, and you cannot readily obtain those drawings from another source, then the roof was not fit for purpose. This will apply regardless of any T&Cs.

 

I had a look at their website and the FAQs you referred to. I do not believe that this will help them. A statement that 'they can provide drawings' is ambiguous. It is not obvious to me what is meant by the word 'can' and it is not stated whether the drawings will or will not be provided in any particular case. If this company wanted to have a right to withhold the drawings, they should have stated that expressly. I am also not convinced that the FAQs form part of your contract - they are pre-contract representations, they are not the terms of your contract.

 

It sounds to me like you have grounds to push them further for the drawings. You could go to court if they still refuse to provide the drawings. The risk is that they may try to counterclaim for the debt they say is owed.

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