Off topic posts from "Getting them to Reveal their Vitals"

[Last of the Mohicans]

Can I ask a daft question - I wrote to HSBC for a copy of my original PPI application as I was challenging the £80 a month they were taking (even after they suspended the account on my credit card) I got a nice letter back telling me that, due to the passing of time they could not find the document (as the PPI was attached to the application would this mean they couldn't find either or with the PPI part missing from the original contract would it invalidate the lot) having this letter, and reading this forum this seems like an HSBC booboo by admitting it in writing - is it worth pursuing this 'cos it would be handy to get shot of £4500 worth of credit debt (£1200 of that has been made up of the PPI insurance payments)

 

Cheers

Gaz the Jock (living in Engerluuuuunnnndddd) :grin:

 

Sounds like its saved you a quid for the CCA requey anyway mate

 

It might be worth an SAR initial (£10 plus recorded del) but always bear in mind if you are actively paying, you're saying loud and clear that you agree that you owe them. On that basis, they could *probably* turn up in court with a beer mat for an agreement and you'd still have to pay. You might however find an angle that could substantially reduce the overall debt - charges, penalties and the like, so it could well be worth a punt.

[vespapx125]

I've not paid for months - i'm going bankrupt in 5 weeks.... they took the payments even after the account was suspended and I had to send chopped up card back

[citizenB]

Vespa, it might be worth asking your question in the PPI forum. There will be people with more knowledge over there:D

[InformedSearcher]

Okay, just a little input here as I (kind of) bank with HSBC. If they call you, untill you give the answers to security questions they cannot see you 'history'. This is in fact exactly what happens in the cases of an internet service provider.

They ask you after confirming the most silly questions unknowing that you have a history. This also works when you communicate by snail mail. In a way 'stupid' but there again these are people employed to ask/get information. I dread to think how many people are employed in these areas - hopefully someone here can give us all a clue? One needs to understand that the average HSBC operative caller in the UK gets circa 15k pa and in the Phillipines (if you are on their collections daily phone call section) considerably less. You are not speaking to the people who get the inflated rates of pay here and they have 'no' authority whatsoever to credit you or give back anything..

AFAIK when you send a (snail mail) letter it's dealt with by a basic admin. assistant (remember that circa 15k pa!). Nothing more and nothng less. When you get a reply you can call but they only give you their public number and it's doubtful who you speak to will know who signed the letter you got. In fact you'll probably be told that the person who signed the letter is not contactable by phone (aka they do not exist).

In the eyes of any Financial Institution you are merely a number. That's not me being my cynical self but simple reality. If you have loads of cash then it's a different matter (and different numbers too!) but usually eveyone here does not fall into that category.

Banks such as HSBC can drag their heels on everthing they do. They know they have financial power and everyone will wait for them. Again reality and not me being cynical. This is why so many people take such companies to court and either win or lose because all these companies concerned consider themselves very special. We all know the truth in these times but they have not 'quite' realised yet. Consider next time you go to the supermarket that it is no different to a bank - Eek those banks would cringe at the pure thought!

Michael

[StayingCalm]

Hi all

 

UPDATE

 

CPR 31.14 REQUEST to N244 APPLICATION HEARING to COURT ORDER

 

I used the CPR 31.14 request letter detailed in this thread in response to a N1 claim from Northampton CCBC, for a Credit Card debt assigned absolutely to a DCA.

 

The POC mentioned the Agreement, the Assignment and the Default Notice so I requested the Solicitors to disclosure all of these documents.

 

Solicitors replied saying that they are not obliged to provide the information requested, and that the POC is sufficiently detailed.

 

Following X20’s advice I then filed an application using N244.

 

HISTORY

 

October 2008…..N1 from Northampton CCBC

 

November 08…..Acknowledged service on line

 

November 08…..CPR 31.14 Request to Solicitors by Special Delivery allowing 7 days to reply.

 

November 08…..Reply from Solicitors ‘we are not obliged to provide……’

 

November 08…..N244 Application to extend time of service of Defence + Unless Draft

Order + £75 to Northampton by SD.

 

November 08…..Letter from Court, fee should be £40, balance to be refunded.

 

November 08…..Phoned Court. Application to be referred to a District Judge at Northampton. A ‘Bar’ has been put on case which means that Judgement can not be entered until the Judge has ruled on the Application.

 

December 08……Court Order from Northampton CC

 

1. The Application to extend the time to file a defence must be heard on notice to the Claimant. Transfer to the Defendant’s local court.

 

2. Any application for Judgment in default shall be Stayed pending the outcome of this application.

 

February 2009…..Court Order from local court.

 

Upon considering the Court file an Application Hearing will take place in March

 

March 2009…..Application Hearing at local court. Claimant did not turn up.

 

Unless by 4pm on (14 days hence) the Claimant complies with a request made by the Defendant on xxxxxxx pursuant to CPR 31.14 by the provision to the Defendant of documents mentioned in the POC, namely (1) the agreement (2) the assignment and (3) the Default Notice then:

 

1. The claim shall stand struck out without further order of the court.

 

2. The Claimant shall pay the Defendant his costs of this case to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to the provisions of the Litigants in Person (costs and expenses) Act 1975.

 

3. In the event that the Claimant shall comply with this order, the Defendant shall file and serve a Defence by 4pm on xxxxxxxx.

 

4. In any event the Claimant shall pay the Defendant’s costs of this application in the sum of £150.

 

 

RESULT

 

 

THE CLAIMANT HAS NOT COMPLIED BY THE DATE STATED.

 

 

But what do I do now?

 

How does the Strike Out work?

 

Do I have to inform the court, does the court have to write to the Claimant?

 

 

Regards

SC

Edited April 6, 2009 by StayingCalm
correction

[Gazza112]

Hi staying Calm

 

Looks like its a result, but other caggers on here with more experiance that me on this will advise you.

I'm just a little behind you with this, as i've put in a 31.14 to the Solicitor on the 12th March and still had no reply. Must be the same Solicitor as yours lol. i'll will need some advice when the time come as well in what to do next.

Good luck hope this is a good result for you.

 

 

gaz

[joneseyblod]

Would suggest ringing the court to find out what to do next. I think as per point 1 the claim will automatically stand struck out without anything further from the court needed.

[MAGDA]

You can ring the court as Jonesey said and then follow up in writing, either email or fax, if they will accept that. This is what I did with mine to get them struck out. The court should automatically strike out a claim, but from experience, I think it is better to ring and check on this and then follow up. Well done, seems to be going your way. Magda

[StayingCalm]

Hi all

 

RE UNLESS ORDER

 

I phoned the Court yesterday as advised on here and was told that there was a diary entry to check my file and then they would automatically issue an order to strike out the claim. Due to work load this is not always done on the date the Unless Order expires and could take a week or so. However, as I had now phoned and she has checked my file, she said it would be done straight away.

 

So it’s looking good, fingers crossed. Just waiting for the postman now.

 

Regards

SC

[citizenB]

Hi all

 

RE UNLESS ORDER

 

I phoned the Court yesterday as advised on here and was told that there was a diary entry to check my file and then they would automatically issue an order to strike out the claim. Due to work load this is not always done on the date the Unless Order expires and could take a week or so. However, as I had now phoned and she has checked my file, she said it would be done straight away.

 

So it’s looking good, fingers crossed. Just waiting for the postman now.

 

Regards

SC

 

Fingers crossed here for you as well

[angel_1]

Everything possibly crossed for a good result SC,,,,keep positive laters angel x 8-)

[underdog13]

Fingers crossed for you SC - hope the postman brings you some good news soon:)

[StayingCalm]

Thanks everyone

 

We are away for a short break to see our daughter at a holiday cottage from early Thursday morning :D, so wont get any post now until at least Sunday

 

No internet either, so see you all later.

 

Regards

SC

[andrew0101]

I have just used the excellent letter produced by X20 and have received a copy of CCA and t's and c's for my agreement, they are illegible as the print is so small and fuzzy on the t's and c's that they are impossible to read and the agreement although containg all prescribed terms has areas of fuzz that makes some of it totally illegible. The lawyers comment ''if you are unable to read the copy supplied we cannot comment further''

However, they say the following

 

''Your reading of the CPR is correct in relation to CPR PD16 para 7.3 however, as this case was issued out of the Bulk Issue Centre, it is provided by CPR 7 PDC 1.4(4) so that the rule you refer to does not apply

 

We have under cover of a previous letter supplied you with a copy of the agreement together with terms and conditions, copy representation of the Notice of Assignment and copy statements.

 

If by the word assignment you are in fact referring to the debt sale and purchase agreement we can confirm that a request has been made to produce a copy of it''

 

 

Could someone advise as I have no idea what they are on about and it appears they may well be trying to baffle me!

[Josie8]

I have just used the excellent letter produced by X20 and have received a copy of CCA and t's and c's for my agreement, they are illegible as the print is so small and fuzzy on the t's and c's that they are impossible to read and the agreement although containg all prescribed terms has areas of fuzz that makes some of it totally illegible. The lawyers comment ''if you are unable to read the copy supplied we cannot comment further''

However, they say the following

 

''Your reading of the CPR is correct in relation to CPR PD16 para 7.3 however, as this case was issued out of the Bulk Issue Centre, it is provided by CPR 7 PDC 1.4(4) so that the rule you refer to does not apply

 

We have under cover of a previous letter supplied you with a copy of the agreement together with terms and conditions, copy representation of the Notice of Assignment and copy statements.

 

If by the word assignment you are in fact referring to the debt sale and purchase agreement we can confirm that a request has been made to produce a copy of it''

 

 

Could someone advise as I have no idea what they are on about and it appears they may well be trying to baffle me!

 

 

They still have to produce the documentation.

 

If it is illegible then they have a problem

[shirei12]

subbing this excellent thread for reference

[Muffintop]

Hi, not been here for a couple of weeks, decided i had to try to save my credit file from default notice due to personal circs. had already tried cpr pre court disclosure part 31.16 without avail.

I really need some no mincing words advise here, I caved in to mercers and mbna and paid them the backdated amounts that i had stopped whilst account was placed in dispute by ME following in my opinion non compliance with sec 77 (they didnt agree of course)

I dont want to sit back 6 years and wait to be taken to court eventually, by which point i would have a diabiolical credit rating

My intention was always to go through the process of requesting cca

disputing account

stopping payments

sar request

then cpr request

 

and finally taking it to court for a pre action disclosure and then assuming that if they could not supply the signed agreement they would not be permited to enforce the terms pursuant to section 142 of the act and i would be entitled to seek a declaration of unenforceability from the court.

 

However somewhere down the line someone knowledgeable on here told me that if I were to take it to court I was taking a HUGE risk as it was up to me to prove the unenforceability of the agreement

 

Since then I have taken a bit of advise from a solicitor who has said that if you can proove the trail of letters trying to get a true copy of your signed agreement then you are forced to take it to court it would show that you have tried everything you can.

 

MY QUESTIONS IS

Where do I go from here.... iv paid them all the amount that I had stopped and they were slapping 12.00 charges every month for late payments, they were then slapping over my limit charges and finally they were trashing my credit file with 3 x late payments and close to a default

 

Please can someone give me their view

[the_shadow]

Hi, not been here for a couple of weeks, decided i had to try to save my credit file from default notice due to personal circs. had already tried cpr pre court disclosure part 31.16 without avail.

I really need some no mincing words advise here, I caved in to mercers and mbna and paid them the backdated amounts that i had stopped whilst account was placed in dispute by ME following in my opinion non compliance with sec 77 (they didnt agree of course)

I dont want to sit back 6 years and wait to be taken to court eventually, by which point i would have a diabiolical credit rating

My intention was always to go through the process of requesting cca

disputing account

stopping payments

sar request

then cpr request

 

and finally taking it to court for a pre action disclosure and then assuming that if they could not supply the signed agreement they would not be permited to enforce the terms pursuant to section 142 of the act and i would be entitled to seek a declaration of unenforceability from the court.

 

However somewhere down the line someone knowledgeable on here told me that if I were to take it to court I was taking a HUGE risk as it was up to me to prove the unenforceability of the agreement

 

Since then I have taken a bit of advise from a solicitor who has said that if you can proove the trail of letters trying to get a true copy of your signed agreement then you are forced to take it to court it would show that you have tried everything you can.

 

MY QUESTIONS IS

Where do I go from here.... iv paid them all the amount that I had stopped and they were slapping 12.00 charges every month for late payments, they were then slapping over my limit charges and finally they were trashing my credit file with 3 x late payments and close to a default

 

Please can someone give me their view

 

Muffintop, I'm no expert but if you've tried the CPR route then it may be best to try a N244 disclosure request as per the "why its best...." thread. This way you have asked a judge to help you obtain a copy of your agreement, got to be 10 times more valuable than just a letter trail in my humble opinion. Dont forget there are a couple of cases I believe due at the end of this month so hold off on putting the request in if you go for it.

 

S.

[Muffintop]

I can see the N244 form but dont know in what context i would use it?

I cannot find the why its best thread could you kindly give me the whole thread name for me to search it. thanks for your advise.... any one else who can add grateful, I dont want to sit around 6 years.. cannot. I want to push this forward now and just dont know how

Wouldnt I have had to done a lba and lodged my case before submitting a N244

SAMPLE FORM N244

NOTICE OF APPLICATION

Delete Above Here Ù

 

 

Plaintiff / Defendant's Address

* (

Your Address

* (

State nature and grounds of application to have the judgement to be set aside.

I wish to apply for…

The reason being that (for example) I did not receive the summons

Signed: ……………................

Sign here: ……………............... Plaintiff / Defendant

Dated: ……./…….../20……

Address for service

Your Address .................................

Edited April 16, 2009 by Muffintop
EDITING

[foolishgirl]

Muffintop, I'm no expert but if you've tried the CPR route then it may be best to try a N244 disclosure request as per the "why its best...." thread.

S.

 

Did you mean 'why you shouldn't...' shadow?

 

If so, this is the link muffintop:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

[Muffintop]

thanks guys I will read right through, does a claim have to be lodged prior to the n244?

[the_shadow]

thanks guys I will read right through, does a claim have to be lodged prior to the n244?

 

No and thats the beauty of it, its pre-court disclosure

 

S.

[hunni2006]

Wow.... just when I thought I was starting to get my head round this, I find this thread!

 

I have started my own thread previously, http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/202646-cabot-financila-vanquis-cc.html

 

and have received lots of helpful advice, resulting in me sending CPR 18 on followed by CPR 31.14 to the DCA's solicitors., but after reading this thread, I'm a little concerned about the wording on the CPR 31.14 as my particular POC are very vague.

 

the Claimant is part of the cabot financial group and has purchased the debt(s) scheduled below. Despite requests for payment the defendant has failed to pay the sum of XXXXXX in relation to the defendant's Vanquis Bank Limited Credit Card Account number xxxxx And the claimant calims the sum of XXXXX together with interest under section 69 of the County courts act 1984 and costs.

 

It's a moot point. CPR 31.14 requires a document to be 'mentioned' and a common example of a document being mentioned would be for example, the phrase 'agreement in writing'.

 

However where a Claimant expressly mentions in his Particulars of Claim a reference to a regulated agreement or to one which would plainly be an agreement regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (for example 'credit card agreement'), it seems to me that a case can be made out that mentioning the agreement in such terms is 'to mention a document' for else if it were not embodied in a document it would not be regulated and would fall foul of the provisions of Part V of The Act and Regulations thereunder.

 

That would not necessarily apply to other documents for example a default notice or notice of assignment. Again a default notice and notice of assignment will be in writing but the Claimant may not expressly mention these in the Particulars of Claim.

 

The point is this - seek the document under CPR 31.14 but be careful about applying for an order compelling disclosure of the document unless you are confident you can show the document you seek disclosure of is a 'document mentioned' in the Particualrs of Claim.

 

x20

 

There are no documents mentioned.

 

I sent off the CPR 31.14 with only no. 5 deleted.... I don't know if I've done the right thing now.

[hunni2006]

oh, and what does bump mean/do please?

[citizenB]

oh, and what does bump mean/do please?

 

people will "bump" your thread if they see your question hasnt been answered. If they are unable to offer advice themselves it will just move your thread to the top of the pile:D

 

Even though you POC were incredibly vague if you read it carefully, they mention the account so you can ask for a copy of the agreement and they mention having purchased the account so you can ask for the assignment note.

 

Theoretically supporting documents would include the statement of account making up the sum they say you owe, T&cs, etc. So you are well covered.

 

You are a LiP (LItigant in Person) so you will be cut some slack.. either way, they cant do very much about it,