Off topic posts from "Getting them to Reveal their Vitals"

[NGEddie]

Cheers Dicky, yes we got a DN, faulty on two counts ive been told.

 

So should I send a CPR 31.14 and 18 off together?

 

Ahhh, nearly forgetting, do I send it to the Finance company themselves, or the solicitor they handed the case over to?

 

Not any contact from the FC since the solicitor has been writing.

 

What are you opinions of the POC by the way, seems ambiguos!

 

Thanks!

[NGEddie]

 

Have you got your own thread?

IMHO I would be concentrating on your defence ....

 

This is my thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/237396-defence-advice-needed-please.html

 

any help or comments welcome

 

Thanks

 

E

[NGEddie]

 

then do a CPR 18 letter and ask for copies of any dn tn or other evidence they intend to rely upon (templates around the site if you seach on cpr18)

 

Cannot seem to find any templates, just finding threas with CPR in :-|

 

Not on here is it?

 

The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors

 

Would much appreciate if anyone can point me in the right direction

 

Cheers!

[diddydicky]

Cheers Dicky, yes we got a DN, faulty on two counts ive been told.

 

So should I send a CPR 31.14 and 18 off together?

 

Ahhh, nearly forgetting, do I send it to the Finance company themselves, or the solicitor they handed the case over to?

 

Not any contact from the FC since the solicitor has been writing.

 

What are you opinions of the POC by the way, seems ambiguos!

 

Thanks!

 

deal with the solicitor but refer throughout to "your client" did said etc and not "you said"

 

the POC is helpful

 

i have one without a dn being mentioned so when they issue POC's i will put in an embarrased defence then send the CPR31.14

 

if they fail to respond i would then pay 40 quid and apply for a strike out on the basis that they have not disclosed a cause of action in the POC and then go on to show how they do not have a cause of action due to not having served an effective DN and then explain how they can now never serve an effective DN because they then unlawfully terminated the agreement

 

when i have the paperwork ready i would then fax them with the outline of my case to strike out and invite them to discontinue without costs within 24 hours failing which i will make the application

 

but thats me

[diddydicky]

Cannot seem to find any templates, just finding threas with CPR in :-|

 

Not on here is it?

 

The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors

 

Would much appreciate if anyone can point me in the right direction

 

Cheers!

 

here you go- knock this around a bit

 

In the XXXX*County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION CPR 18

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.*

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.*

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.(AMEND TO THE COMPANY NAME)

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

 

Send by Recorded Delivery.

[diddydicky]

take out anything (like the agreement) which you have asked for in the CPR 31.14 ( anything you ask for in the cpr 31.14 must be mentioned in the POC's)

[NGEddie]

Thank you mate, thats spot on what I needed!

 

It seems we are in a similar boat then, this is my one :-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/237396-defence-advice-needed-please-4.html#post2687477

 

and yes pretty much what I have been told, and also what I have read in other posts that seemed the best course of action.

 

So send the 31.14 and 18, wait and see, then go for a SO I feel could be best plan, for £40 its worth a try.

 

It is between the other and my local court as far as I know so hope I have enough time to do this all!

 

About a month ago when I started on here, I was crapping it seeing all these numbers and forms, but now, just about, its starting to make sense, you are all a great bunch of guys! and gals! and your help and information is worth its weight in gold

 

Its also good to see we are actually going through the steps and emotions attached to getting court letters etc... ourselves.

 

Cheers again

 

E

[diddydicky]

if you make the SO application before AQ's im sure its 40 quid (claimable) otherwise if you do it as part of your defence its free

 

but doing it first gives you two bites at the cherry

[diddydicky]

when you find some thing useful on the forum like a pro forma or useful text then highlight the text then copy and paste into your word processor and give it a suitable title so that you can find it again

 

if there is a link to a case to be referred to for your case then go to it and then save the internet link to your favourites folder

 

you'll soon build up a useful library and also be able to help other newbies out

[NGEddie]

Yes I have been doing that actually, it soon builds up!

 

I had some more advice on my other post

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/237396-defence-advice-needed-please-4.html#post2688542

 

as to if I should actually send the 31.14 at this stage afterall, so am a little confused. To update, I have sent an embarrassed defence in already and am waiting to hear.

 

So I believe I am correct in thinking a good time to go for SO is once I know its at my local court? do they write and tell you?

 

Cheers again for your help

 

E

[george1961]

I am sending in a subject access request to the dwp, any help in what i should be asking them ?

[citizenB]

I am sending in a subject access request to the dwp, any help in what i should be asking them ?

 

Do you mean the Department of Work & Pensions ?

 

You just need to ask for EVERYTHING (All Information) that they have in respect of you personally.

[george1961]

Thanks

Yes its the dwp, i have asked for all information whether it is in house,phone calls if they are recorded,any info between the dwp and atos plus any hand written memos between offices.They asked me what offices and i have said everyone that has had any dealings with me.I also know 4 separate dm,s looked at my case so i have asked for it as well.

 

What i am trying to find out is. Can they withold any info , can they refuse to give me it and are they legaly bound to hold onto peoples data for a certain time.

 

I still have an on-going complaint about an hcp, can this affect any of the information i want ?

Ta George

[Notasniceasjoe]

I've read through this very informative thread and, though there;s a huge amount to take in, it looks as though this is a viable course of action form me to take in attempting to get a copy of a CCA for the claim that I received last week.

 

I've put the details in this thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/248610-help-needed-court-claim.html

 

In the meantime I'm uncertain as to whether to send the solicitors a CPR31.14 request for the documents that the Particulars of Claim refer to. My uncertainty comes from the fact that the PoC only refers to "a contract" with a date and no other document is explicitly mentioned. The description of a Default balance, and the date, implies a default notice, but doesn't actually explicitly mention one.

 

There is also the issue that the amount claimed is just less than £5,000 and, if allocated to the Small Claims Track, there is the excuse that CPR 3.14 doesn't apply..

 

I also need to get a breakdown on how the figures presented in the PoC were calculated and, in the event of making a counterclaim, details of the PPI policy.

 

A CPR 3.14 request wouldn't cover those, would it? I can see where it could be implied that the existence of such figures indicates that the claimant is reliance on the existnce of documentary evidence of such, but there's nothing explicitly mentioned.

[the_shadow]

I've read through this very informative thread and, though there;s a huge amount to take in, it looks as though this is a viable course of action form me to take in attempting to get a copy of a CCA for the claim that I received last week.

 

I've put the details in this thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/248610-help-needed-court-claim.html

 

In the meantime I'm uncertain as to whether to send the solicitors a CPR31.14 request for the documents that the Particulars of Claim refer to. My uncertainty comes from the fact that the PoC only refers to "a contract" with a date and no other document is explicitly mentioned. The description of a Default balance, and the date, implies a default notice, but doesn't actually explicitly mention one.

 

There is also the issue that the amount claimed is just less than £5,000 and, if allocated to the Small Claims Track, there is the excuse that CPR 3.14 doesn't apply..

 

I also need to get a breakdown on how the figures presented in the PoC were calculated and, in the event of making a counterclaim, details of the PPI policy.

 

A CPR 3.14 request wouldn't cover those, would it? I can see where it could be implied that the existence of such figures indicates that the claimant is reliance on the existnce of documentary evidence of such, but there's nothing explicitly mentioned.

 

If it mentions contract then at the very least you can demand to see that "contract". Whilst the Allocation Questionairres have yet to be filled in the case is trackless and therefore part of the letter clearly states this and that they should not seek to hide behind small claims track rules at present.

 

I would send off a CPR 31.14 letter now, put in a holding defence (possibly, have not read your thread) and then when the AQ's come I would put in a possible order under section G asking for disclosure of all the documents you require.

 

S.

[Surfer01]

I am a bit of a newbie when it comes to all this legal jargon but I have filed a defence.

If under S78 CCA you send a request and the documentation is illegible and then send a SAR and the copy of the original agreement is still fuzzy and almost unreadable are you saying that if you send a CPR 31-14 request then they have to produce the original documentation in court as this seems the only way I am going to see it?

I strongly believe that when I entered into the agreement it did not comply with the prescribed terms of the CCA in that the T & Cs were never made available for my perusal at the time.

I have passed the allocation questionaire bit and are looking at a defence as each copy of the agreement they send me is obviously a copy of the faxed agreement that was sent to the creditor by the agent. In addition the copy of the T & Cs that they sent me do not match up with the agreement which was a fixed loan but T & Cs refer to it as a secured loan.

[diddydicky]

the fact of the illegible agreement in response to the s78 means that they are in default of s78 and my not enforce.

 

so this should form part of your defence

 

 

what about default notice?

 

do the pocs refer to a loan regulated by the consumer credit act

 

 

you need to start a new thread i think and post up the agreement and POC

[mercyblue]

Considering the vagueness of most POC's, cabot especially, making it difficult to use cpr 31.14 etc why bother with it? Why not just wait till the AQ stage where they are going to have to provide everything via standard disclosure in any case? Any thoughts?

[foolishgirl]

IMO the problem with relying solely on standard disclosure or submitting draft directions on an AQ is that with the former, you are denied the opportunity to request a specific item & with the latter, you are reliant on a DJ issuing those directions. With CPR 31.14 you take the ball game to the claimant & if he chooses not to play, you can use the court process at an earlier stage to get him to play or force a surrender.

[pt2537]

Considering the vagueness of most POC's, cabot especially, making it difficult to use cpr 31.14 etc why bother with it? Why not just wait till the AQ stage where they are going to have to provide everything via standard disclosure in any case? Any thoughts?

well my first thought was "are you mad"

 

to allow this to plod to SD without a whimper is absurd. Read para 24 of Expandable Expandable Ltd & Anor v Rubin [2008] EWCA Civ 59 (11 February 2008) LJ Rix makes clear that the CPR is a cards on the table approach, from the outset not just when you get to SD

 

Besides, without docs how can you plead? if you file a defence that says you understand the case against you and how can that be if the agremeent hasnt been disclosed to you etc?

 

If a company resists 31.14 i apply on notice always without fail. i would never file a defence if they resist disclosure i always apply

[mercyblue]

Well I hope I aren't mad just eccentric perhaps!

I take your point about without docs how can you plead. However if your defence does not rely on such docs, mine didn't, then that isn't a problem, but I suppose that is somewhat unusual.

My thinking behind this was that I wanted to play my cards as close to myself as possible and let the other side hang themselves out to dry. Foolishgirl the point is I didn't want to ask for specific items if they didn't include everything in their bundle thats their problem. As for the draft directions if you word it right I don't see how any DJ can not issue them - unless they expect the claimant to turn up with nothing.

We shall find out if there is method in my madness later this month....

[diddydicky]

well my first thought was "are you mad"

 

to allow this to plod to SD without a whimper is absurd. Read para 24 of Expandable Expandable Ltd & Anor v Rubin [2008] EWCA Civ 59 (11 February 2008) LJ Rix makes clear that the CPR is a cards on the table approach, from the outset not just when you get to SD

 

Besides, without docs how can you plead? if you file a defence that says you understand the case against you and how can that be if the agremeent hasnt been disclosed to you etc?

 

If a company resists 31.14 i apply on notice always without fail. i would never file a defence if they resist disclosure i always apply

 

pt, i have just got to AQ stage with one of mine and they have not complied with the CPR31.14 request and several reminders- instead stating in a letter from their sols that the agreement and DN they already sent me are the agreement and DN that i am asking for!

 

can i still apply for an order in respect of 31.14 now that i am at AQ stage as well as filing the AQ's or should i now include an order for directions wtih the AQ to comply with the 31.14 request

 

 

i should really have done this earlier (lesson now learned )

 

the second one i have not mucked about with an made a strike out application (DN and agreement both naff )

 

dick

[freethemice]

Well I hope I aren't mad just eccentric perhaps!

I take your point about without docs how can you plead. However if your defence does not rely on such docs, mine didn't, then that isn't a problem, but I suppose that is somewhat unusual.

My thinking behind this was that I wanted to play my cards as close to myself as possible and let the other side hang themselves out to dry. Foolishgirl the point is I didn't want to ask for specific items if they didn't include everything in their bundle thats their problem. As for the draft directions if you word it right I don't see how any DJ can not issue them - unless they expect the claimant to turn up with nothing.

We shall find out if there is method in my madness later this month....

All you will get from the other side at court with this stance is "we weren't aware that this was in dispute. If the defendant had of told us we could have brought xyz document to court," If they are claiming you have to defend. To defend you need to know the claim. To know the claim you need to have all the documents the other side has. Rather than play your cards close to your chest take a peak and see what cards are in the other players hand. You can then reshuffle your cards to suit. Are you really that sure they aren't holding Aces?

[mercyblue]

All you will get from the other side at court with this stance is "we weren't aware that this was in dispute. If the defendant had of told us we could have brought xyz document to court

At which point my response is if you have xyz document then why is it not in your disclosure bundle?

[bazaar]

pt, i have just got to AQ stage with one of mine and they have not complied with the CPR31.14 request and several reminders- instead stating in a letter from their sols that the agreement and DN they already sent me are the agreement and DN that i am asking for!

 

can i still apply for an order in respect of 31.14 now that i am at AQ stage as well as filing the AQ's or should i now include an order for directions wtih the AQ to comply with the 31.14 request

 

 

i should really have done this earlier (lesson now learned )

 

the second one i have not mucked about with an made a strike out application (DN and agreement both naff )

 

dick

 

IMHO If theyve stated on a court reply that , your agreement is what they sent and its not signed, then it must simply be a case of unenforcability and therefore struck out