NATWEST - joint OD, and separate personal loan lumped together by Moorcroft

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all, could do with some advice please with my Natwest helpful banking problem.

 

My business collapsed last year and I am looking for work, but income is currently negligible.

 

Had a personal O/D with Natwest in joint names (£5000 owed), and my OH took out a loan in her name (£5000 owed).

 

So the £10000 owed was being chased by Triton who have passed it to Moorcroft after I wrote asking for a 6 months "suspension" of the accounts.

 

Moorcroft have written to my OH for the whole amount and are threatening "intended litigation".

 

The OD goes back 20 years and the loan was taken out about 3 years ago.

 

My questions

 

1. The Moorcroft letter to my OH refers to a client reference number. Should I ask for a copy of the CCA for this "new" account?
    
   
2. If it goes to court will it be a standard CCJ arrangement? (we have no property and few assets) or can they do anything else since it is £10000?
    
   
3. It is complicated in that the OD is joint and the loan is in one name only. Does this give them any extra powers?
    
   
4. How do I start to challenge the charges they have made on the OD?
   

 

 

Very grateful for any help as this one is a real worry for us. They are just not listening.

[Bazooka Boo]

As you have already correctly surmised, a loan and a OD cannot be lumped together, as OD's have part 5 exemptions from the CCA. So yes I would in the first instance, send them a CCA for the 'new' account number, see if what they come back with.

As well as sending them that request start a formal complaints procedure against NatWest, and inform the OFT&TS via http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact of moorcrap's infantile working practices, and their deluded idea of putting two separate debts together to make one big one.

[Rocky Roadster]

Thanks Bazooka.

 

I am very annoyed that they have elected to chase my wife for the whole lot, presumably as the loan part is in her name.

I will send a CCA request to Moorcroft tomorrow .

 

I have already complained to Natwest about Triton harrassing us by phone and the calls stopped, but Natwest wrote "regret that I cannot uphold your complaint".

[Bazooka Boo]

Escalate it beyond twitwest..

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all,

 

Moorcroft replied to my CCA request by returning the postal order with a letter stating that their Client is currently unable to provide a signed copy of the agreement. but please be aware that the Courts have recently .....quoting McGuffick v RBS... and the Client confirms that there remains an obligation to honour the original agreement.. threats to credit file etc. The account is on hold for 14 days. (Why?) Contact our office and we will be happy to arrange a payment plan.

 

It is for an joint overdraft and a personal loan (my wife's), all lumped together in my wife's name, so there is no agreement.

 

My mind is boggling because of the different references they are using and I don't know how to take this further, or whether any good would come of it.

 

Midas Legal Services letter on 10/02 demands the whole lot and says contact Moorcroft by 17/02 or else legal proceedings may follow without further notice!!!

 

Should I offer a token monthly payment, or challenge the lumped together, made up account?

 

This site has been a godsend for me when I was in despair. My thanks to everyone.

 

Best Wishes,

[Bazooka Boo]

As they cannot produce a CCA then there is zero legal action they can take against you, they will need an original agreement, which they have not got, to enforce this through the courts, so you have it in writing that they cannot produce an agreement, job done, account in dispute until they can come up with a copy of the original agreement or a recon version, which begs the question if they are foolishly relying on a case that has no relevance to your circumstances, then why did they not send a recon version of the original agreement, there is nothing to do except make a formal complaint to the OFT&TS via http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

 

Which I shall be doing in two minutes after receiving a "To the Occupier" missive form Hillside!!!

[rockwell304]

Hi all,

 

Moorcroft replied to my CCA request by returning the postal order with a letter stating that their Client is currently unable to provide a signed copy of the agreement. but please be aware that the Courts have recently .....quoting McGuffick v RBS... and the Client confirms that there remains an obligation to honour the original agreement.. threats to credit file etc. The account is on hold for 14 days. (Why?) Contact our office and we will be happy to arrange a payment plan.

 

It is for an joint overdraft and a personal loan (my wife's), all lumped together in my wife's name, so there is no agreement.

 

My mind is boggling because of the different references they are using and I don't know how to take this further, or whether any good would come of it.

 

Midas Legal Services letter on 10/02 demands the whole lot and says contact Moorcroft by 17/02 or else legal proceedings may follow without further notice!!!

 

Should I offer a token monthly payment, or challenge the lumped together, made up account?

 

This site has been a godsend for me when I was in despair. My thanks to everyone.

 

Best Wishes,

 

 

See below, just about sums up Midas Legal!

 

Re: Morgan Stanley/Barclaycard - is this enforceable please?

Originally Posted by

Desperate Daniella

You are supposed to be shaking with terror because the letterheading includes the word 'legal'.

 

As they are new you might as well send them the standard sod off letter and you can also ask them why Moorcroft is now calling itself Midas Legal Services.

 

 

 

Thank you DD,

Re. Midas Legal, I've just had a look at these clowns! They are a dormant company so if anyone receives a threatening letter you know what to tell them!

Alternatively, you can find their one registered director at one of the following;

NEIL GEORGE MCROBERTS

MOORCROFT FINANCIAL SERVICES LIMITED

MOORCROFT DEBT RECOVERY LIMITED

MOORCROFT INVESTIGATION SERVICES LIMITED

MOORCROFT COMPUTER SERVICES LIMITED

MOORCROFT GROUP PUBLIC LIMITED COMPANY

ROMILEY GOLF CLUB LIMITED

 

 

 

[Surfer01]

Hopefully you have a parachute account set up with another financial insitution.

[nometer]

Subbing

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all,

 

I have a parachute account now, strictly no credit (my rule).

 

The bank has written to us about the loan, but Moorcroft are still chasing the loan and overdraft as one debt.

 

They probably have got a CCA for the loan, but whilst it is with Moorcroft I am challenging the whole lumped together debt under that reference number.

 

Cheers,

[Bazooka Boo]

Yes that is how to do it, use the new ref number they are quoting for an account that doesn't exist...fools.

[debbbbsy]

Hi,

The new account reference number now being quoted by Natwest/RBS/ Triton/ Moorcroft, in any of the correspondence, have they actually stated what type of account this is. Is it a full account ref with a sort code ( xxxxxxxx xxxxxx) or is it a 6 digit ref number ( Router Account).

 

A Router Account, is an internal account set up to make it easier for them to manage the account. It accrues interest and recieves payments, and is set up when they have more then 1 account to manage. Apparently this makes thing easier to manage.

 

When an account goes into default, and is passed to CMS ( RBS/Nastywest internal recovery department), in 1990 the RBS set up a system where accounts were changed without the customers knowledge or consent.They were told the acc no. had changed when infact the current (OD) accounts were change into Loan Capital & interest accounts. This is known as the "Transitioning Process". They gain judgement by failing to tell the consumer that infact, the original accounts they opened have been closed, and the new account ( which does not have an agreement) has been set up to replace the original accounts.

 

Why do they do this ?

A. Well, all RBS Loan agreements contain a clause that allows them to apply post judgement interest.But,consumer law does not allow PJI to be applied to overdrafts.

 

Did you ever recieve a letter from Customer Management Services (RBS/Natwest), informing you that the accounts had been merged, and giving you a New Account number?

 

Send a SAR to :-

Joyce E Tudor

Retail Regulatory Risk

Business House B

PO Box 1000

Edingurgh

EH12 1HQ

 

Request statements & all data, for not only the original Loan & current account, but also the "New" Account. She will be unaware of any changes. Use the SAR template.

 

Have a look.

 

walton v rbos

 

don't be daunted by the size of the thread.

 

DandD V RBS

 

 

 

debbie

[PriorityOne]

I had a similar scenario with Moorcroft a few years ago. What you could do with knowing is whether the original creditor lumped the whole lot together and sold them under one of the original account refs.... This is unlawful and they can be pulled up over it. One way to find out is through a SAR but you could ask Moorcroft for a complete breakdown of the alleged amount they're chasing, together with a full statement of account according to the records they claim to hold from the OC.

 

Moorcroft accidentally sent me a copy of a letter from one of my OCs saying that 2 accounts had been amalgamated into one of the account numbers only.... and then sold under that one account ref. which in effect, created a much higher balance on one account than actually existed.

 

Naughty...

 

They went very, very quiet after that... I wonder why? lol....

[debbbbsy]

They went very, very quiet after that... I wonder why? lol....

 

Because they can't. no legislation exists that allows the RBS to "Transition" customers accounts without there knowledge or consent. No consumer law exists that legally entiltles them to close current (OD) accounts and replace them with New (Internal Loan)accounts.

 

The RBS use these accounts to artificially inflate there balance sheet, and make themselves appear more profitable then they actually are.

 

Problem is, they get judgement by withholding the true facts. Then, even when the consumer discovers what they have done, it is very difficult to appeal against a system that judges don't understand.

 

In this case, because Rocky has found the forum, he can challenge this. A SAR to the OC, and a resend to Moorcroft, putting the account in dispute.

[PriorityOne]

Because they can't. no legislation exists that allows the RBS to "Transition" customers accounts without there knowledge or consent. No consumer law exists that legally entiltles them to close current (OD) accounts and replace them with New (Internal Loan)accounts.

 

The RBS use these accounts to artificially inflate there balance sheet, and make themselves appear more profitable then they actually are.

 

Problem is, they get judgement by withholding the true facts. Then, even when the consumer discovers what they have done, it is very difficult to appeal against a system that judges don't understand.

 

In this case, because Rocky has found the forum, he can challenge this. A SAR to the OC, and a resend to Moorcroft, putting the account in dispute.

 

I knew the answer Debbbsy.... I was being sarcastic by asking the question....

 

Moorcroft had a lovely letter from me after that little whoopsy revelation...... it all went quiet after that and I never heard from them again.....

[debbbbsy]

I knew the answer Debbbsy.... I was being sarcastic by asking the question....

 

You were able to challenge the different account numbers, unfortunately when the RBS got judgement against us, at the time they led us to believe that the account numbers had been changed simlpy due to the fact that the accounts when they went into default had been moved to a different branch. In the POC they use the "New" account number, but call them current accounts. When infact they were Loan Capital & interest accounts, and are currently accruing PJI.

When we discovered in 2008 what had happened & challenged the RBS (It took them 8 months to respond to an Official Letter of Complaint) they have stated that this is a normal practice and does not affect the enforceability of the debt. The Financial Ombudsman took a year looking at this, and reached the conclusion, they couldn't make a decision, we would have to take it back to court.

 

We know its illegal. But you try telling the RBS.

 

Debs

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all, Thanks for your help.

 

Natwest wrote to us with a reference number, referring to the two accounts.

Triton used the same reference number.

Moorcroft refers to it as a Client reference number. and included a Moorcroft reference number as well.

 

The only link of the reference number with the accounts is a letter from Natwest with the same reference number and listing the two account numbers which have not changed and the total debt £9k.

I guess that it is a routing reference rather than a new account?

 

It is very confusing but Moorcroft are referring to the reference number and full £9k so they are treating it as one debt. I CCA'd Moorcroft for the account reference and they replied - client currently cannot supply (as above).

 

Natwest credit services also sent a DN letter to us in January for the loan account using the loan account number as reference.

Natwest DN 01-11.pdf

 

Best wishes,

[debbbbsy]

Moorcroft refers to it as a Client reference number

 

If this is a 6 digit ref number, and not an actual acccount number with a sort code, then it is a router account, it is set up by CMS to make it easier for them to manage your accounts. The RBS have stated officially that this is purely an Internal Account and they do not litigate on these accounts.

Moorcroft cannot enforce a claim against you using this account.

 

As they haven't complied with your CCA request. Put the (Router) account into Default and see what happens.

 

In your SAR you can request data from your Router Account. The Data Controller will not have access to this, so you will have to copy CMS on your request because this is on there Internal System. This Internal system is known as a "Diary Event History", an internal log of all internal & external transactions, letters, phonecalls everything logged by CMS, you can request a copy.

 

Debs

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi and many thanks for your advice.

 

I learn something new every time I log on to CAG.

 

I will send the dispute letter to Moorcroft refferring to the router number (for the bundled two accounts) as suggested, and see what their response is.

 

CMS sent me the default notice above (which looks decidedly dodgy to me) and the letter said they will review the account and send us another one in 6 months, so I might hold off on the SAR request until I hear from Moorcroft. It would be interesting to see their notes after they have received my dispute letter.

 

I am keeping a log of everything now (including envelopes and received dates) and will choose my moment to take it further I think.

 

Cheers,

[debbbbsy]

Any problems, just give me a nudge.

 

Debbie

[Rocky Roadster]

Hi all,

These accounts have been passed to Newman & co (who can't spell) and demand immediate action.

 

The accounts were lumped together and Moorcroft wrote to say they couldn't supply a CCA and passed it back.

 

Newman have given it a reference number, but split the two accounts on the letter.

 

Does the dispute letter I sent to Moorcroft still hold?

 

I would be grateful for any advice,

 

Cheers,

[PriorityOne]

Hi all,

These accounts have been passed to Newman & co (who can't spell) and demand immediate action.

 

The accounts were lumped together and Moorcroft wrote to say they couldn't supply a CCA and passed it back.

 

Newman have given it a reference number, but split the two accounts on the letter.

 

Does the dispute letter I sent to Moorcroft still hold?

 

I would be grateful for any advice,

 

Cheers,

 

Yes, the dispute still holds. They need to know that your request remains outstanding, from what date and the reason.

[Bazooka Boo]

Yep, something like this.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?426-A-letter-when-the-account-has-been-passed-to-another-debt-collection-agency

[debbbbsy]

These accounts have been passed to Newman & co (who can't spell) and demand immediate action.

 

Moorcroft gave this debt back to the RBS / Natwest because they know that without an agreement they are wasting there time. The bank don't know how to deal with it , so sell it on again to another DCA who has absolutely no knowledge about what has gone on prerviouley. Inform Newman & Co, the alledged debt is in dispute.

 

Did you do a SAR to the banks data controller ?

 

If they are using a new account number, it is important to establish if your original account is stll active, or have they been closed and replaced with this new one.

 

Debs

[DoubtingThomas]

Subbing - thank you for this thread - going to prove very useful..