Family Business Loan - Signed Promissory Note - SD Failed - Now a Claimform

[rippedoff15]

Well its now 21 days past the Statutory Demand deadline date and nothing not a single letter nor any bankruptcy papers have been sent.

 

 

The only question is now they have sent a SD demand on 15th April are there any timescales or can they issue BR paper at any time in the future, if they had back and file in few months or year do they have to reissue the demand.

[BazzaS]

Who cares?.

 

I don't mean that flippantly, but as a result of looking at the possible outcomes.

A) If they don't file for bankruptcy: who cares.

B) If they file for bankruptcy and it suits your wife to go bankrupt due to her other debts : they are paying the bankruptcy fees, & it suits your wife, so who cares?

C) if they file for bankruptcy at some stage in the future when it no longer suits your wife to go bankrupt: you fight it then on the grounds the alleged debt isn't enforceable : so who cares?.

 

Continue to ignore them until they actually serve the papers (if they do!) at which point you choose between B) and C).

You 'hold the cards', not them.

[AndyOrch]

Well its now 21 days past the Statutory Demand deadline date and nothing not a single letter nor any bankruptcy papers have been sent.

 

 

The only question is now they have sent a SD demand on 15th April are there any timescales or can they issue BR paper at any time in the future, if they had back and file in few months or year do they have to reissue the demand.

 

There is no expiry period for a statutory demand. However, if more than 4 months has passed since they served the demand, they will need to explain to the court why they have delayed in presenting a bankruptcy petition. If the delay is too long, they may have to serve a fresh statutory demand.

[rippedoff15]

Well Well, we had a text last night stating they will not write this debt off, however they would like to meet up and discuss the matter with a view ti reducing the amount. We are going to send a reply saying - Nope, No , not interested for the reasons already stated.

 

There is no way we are going to make any payments as on the 14th September the debt is statue barred anyway,

[reallymadwoman]

Why respond at all? It will just make them think you're going to respond every time.

[BazzaS]

"All communication needs to be in writing, not text or calls, otherwise this will be reported to the police as harassment.

Repeated (and pointless!) letters may also be harassment : you should take legal advice, and may wish to only send letters through your solicitor"

(This has the added bonus of costing them for each pointless letter......)

 

"We continue to believe the alleged debt is not owed and is unenforceable. We have made our position clear and the situation has remained unchanged.

The only communication we are likely to respond to, it having reached this stage, over many years, is a formal legal claim, so that we can get a definitive resolution to this matter"

[rippedoff15]

 

Well all started again, today we have had County Court papers issue against my wife to the sum of £28,905.99 

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

 

dx

 

 

[rippedoff15]

Will add details in the morning 

 

Thanks

[Manxman in exile]

Please don't take this as advice but you may want to think about it.

 

Is your mother in law aware of all this?  (I assume she is as you keep saying your sister in law(?) and her son keep pressuring her to write your wife out of her will).

 

Is your mother in law happy about the way this behaviour is tearing her family apart?

 

Why doesn't your mother in law simply tell your sister in law to cease pursuing you both - or else...

 

Does your sister in law have no respect for her mother?  (Forgive me if I'm mistaken in thinking it is your sister in law behind all this, but that's how I read it.)

 

This has been going on since 2009 and so far as I can see the advice here generally has been that they've got no hope of succeeding.

 

Is there no senior figure of authority in your family who has the respect of everyone and who can bang a few heads together and sort this out before going to court?  It's madness!

 

AS I say, this is certainly not intended to be advice but it may be worth mulling over...

[rippedoff15]

5 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

Yes it`s my wife`s twin sister they have been asking for many years to get the will changed and my mother in-law has clearly said NO, they have said they will get the CCJ and money threats

 

[rippedoff15]

Name of the Claimant ?Brother in-Law

 

Date of issue – 13/03/2020

 

Particulars of Claim

 

What is the claim for –

Particulars of Claim 

 

1. On 31st July 2008 the Creditors ( Mr & Mrs XXXXX ) advanced the sun of £20,000.00 by way of personal loan to the debtor and her husband, Mr XXXXXX who was subsequently adjudged bankrupt.

 

2.On 29th September 2009 the Debtor and her husband signed a promissory note, confirming that the debt was repayable on demand, and her husband made number of payments towards reducing the balance, thereby acknowledge the existence of the debt.

 

3.The final such payment of £125.00 was made on 1st September 2014. No subsequent payments have been made.

 

4.A Demand for payment was made on 6th march 2017 which was ignored and i received no correspondence from the debtor

 

5.As of 12 March 2020 the outstanding balance is £27,660,.88

 

Claimed Amount £27,660.88

Court Fee`s £1,244.74

 

What is the total value of the claim? £28,905.62

 

Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC ( Pre Action Protocol) ?No Just letter stating court action - Claim form

 

Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred?Changed 5 years ago they are aware of address change

 

Did you inform the claimant of your change of address?Yes

 

Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account?Loan to business 

 

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ?After

 

Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ?Telepohne call

 

Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/ Equifax /Etc...) ?No

 

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim.No

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment?No

 

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor?No

 

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ?

Yes statement each year

 

Why did you cease payments?Loss of job, they kept asking for more every month and unable to pay 

 

What was the date of your last payment?14/09/2014

 

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved?No - Funds paid to my business not personal account

 

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan?

 

Yes we did pay £13k to the borther in-law then loss of job they kept demanding more adding interest thus its £28k the loan to the business was £20k we have paid back £13k and they claim now £28k
 
 

[dx100uk]

the most imp thing is missing particulars of claim please, verbatim. ...minus pers ID.

[Manxman in exile]

Look - if this is your wife's twin sister(!!!!!!) then I don't see much chance of this being sorted amicably!

 

Again this is NOT advice but...

 

If I were in the unfortunate position of being your mother in law I'd get my twin daughters together and tell them both that if they can't resolve this once and for all without going to court, then I'd be writing both them and their families out of my will and leaving it all to the cats' home.  (Why isn't she getting involved?  Is this the in-law family from hell?).

 

By my reckoning you (and/or your wife - I've lost track) have paid back about half the original amount lent leaving the balance plus interest outstanding.  Bearing in mind you've been made bankrupt, your business has gone bust and now your wife is contemplating bankruptcy as well (and you again?) plus the consensus view on here seems to be that your sister in law doesn't have a case for claiming the money anyway, then she's got bu99er all chance of getting any money out of you. 

 

You've paid back about half of it, you have been bankrupt, you can't afford to pay any more.  It seems reasonable to me to call it quits.

 

If you can't get this mediated within the family (I'm appalled if you can't) then let her sue you and tell her to **** off.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Manxman in exile

[dx100uk]

urm I wonder where the interest comes into this...a promissory note...does it state any interest?

[rippedoff15]

The promissory note did state 8% PA

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

I only read this thread for the first time last night.

 

Going back a couple of years ago, Steampowered was of the opinion that the promissory note was of no relevance whatsoever because the OP's wife received no consideration for it, AND it had not been executed as a deed, and therefore could not be enforced in law.  I'm uncertain what the current action instigated by the SiL is based on.

 

It's all become terribly complex over the ten(?) years and could do with some kind of summary.  (I'm sorry to have to say it, but the OP hasn't really followed the advice given over the years, and they keep on disappearing for months or years, and then come back with a partial update that doesn't quite continue on from their last posts leaving unexplained gaps).

 

As I see it, this is a family dispute which needs someone in the family with enough common sense to bang some heads together.  Unfortunately, that person doesn't seem to exist.  It's crazy this has gone on for ten years between twins!

[dx100uk]

13 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

I'm sorry to have to say it, but the OP hasn't really followed the advice given over the years, and they keep on disappearing for months or years, and then come back with a partial update that doesn't quite continue on from their last posts leaving unexplained gaps

welcome to a typical cag thread...

 

dx

[rippedoff15]

I understand this has dragged on the years, we have tried every thing to resolve this matter, the other party has said they are not interested in talking they confirmed yes we have repaid over the years £13k but they want the full claim amount, the last words were in fact see you in court once we have the CCJ we will have bailiff collect everything you own plain and simple.

 

My question is we are fighting this and submitted the follows: 

  

A claim was issued against you on 13/03/2020

Your acknowledgment of service was submitted on 24/03/2020 at 19:25:51

Your acknowledgment of service was received on 25/03/2020 at 08:05:23

What is the latest date the defence can be submitted online, is it 14 days from the 25/03/20 = 8/04/20 or 28/04/20 

 

Our defence is based on 2 counts 

 

1, Statue Barred 

2, Promissory Note not Executed as Deed and no Consideration taken into account

[dx100uk]

its by 4pm on day 33 whereby the date of issue is 1 in said count.

 

and just for clarity...

 

it's a civil debt, which is not a criminal matter, so to all intent and purpose there is little any bailiff, be them County Court or High Court can really do.

with civil debt their is NO RIGHT OF FORCED ENTRY. stuff in a garden might be at risk, but unless its gold plated.

 

Cars owned by the named debtors(s) could be clamped and seized, but unless they are gold plated roll-royces are of little interest to them for a debt of this magnitude.

 

as for your defence, ideally you should not mix anything with a statute barred defence.

SB defence is absolute, it either is or it isn't.

 

if there is confidence here that the promissory Note is Immaterial, then simply file SB.

 

 1 The Claimant's claim was issued on (insert date).

 2 The Defendant contends that the Claimant's claim so issued is a claim in contract and is statute barred pursuant to the provisions of section 5 of the limitation act 1980. 
.
If, which is denied, the claimant contends that the Defendant is in breach of the alleged contract, in excess of 6 years have elapsed since the date on which any cause of action for breach accrued for the benefit of the Claimant.
.
 3 The Claimant's claim to be entitled to payment of £[insert figure from their POC]  or any other sum, or relief of any kind is denied.
..
..ends..

 

dx

 

[BazzaS]

No harm in filing a SB defence, and then adding

“and in the alternate, that as the note was not executed as a deed, the absence of consideration prevents a contract having been formed”

Edited April 4, 2020 by BazzaS

[rippedoff15]

This is the note on the defence relating to the Promissory note - Is to long worded or wrong 

 

The Claimants whole case relates to the Promissory note which
was signed under harassment from the claimants at the time and not
signed in the presence of the witness, no funds were ever paid
directly into my own bank accounts and fact the claimant paid the
funds into a business which went into administration.

 

Upon reviewing the documentation the Promissory note was not Executed
as a Deed nor any acknowledgement and i received no consideration
any lieu of the Promissory note in the way of funds or goods,
therefore the Promissory note cannot be a legal document

[rippedoff15]

Forgot to ask 

 

Is the time frame to submit the defence 33 day from the date on the court papers which is 13th March

[BazzaS]

You were asked for the particulars of claim, which I can’t yet see.

 

 Posting your defence (without the particulars of claim) isn’t that helpful : the aim is to tailor the defence to the PofC, highlighting which areas aren’t in dispute (so the court doesn’t have to waste time on them, and can focus on the key areas), and which areas you can (as a matter of critical importance) show where the claim fails on matters of law.

 

ideally their PofC would be numbered, and you could go through line by line....

 

<\example>

1a) It is admitted a loan of £x,000 was granted on <date>
1b) It is denied the loan was made to Person X. The Claimant is mistaken, as in fact, the loan was made to Company Y.
2a) It is admitted in part that payments were made. To clarify, payments ceased on <date>.
The claimant’s belief that payments were made after <date> is denied.

2b) Given more than 6 years have elapsed (with no payments nor admission of debt) ... <Staute barred text>
(Points 3-7, more “denied”, “accepted”, “accepted in part, with bits denied”, and also “neither accepted nor denied, but claimant is put to strict proof thereof”)

it might not be point 7, but you get the gist .....

In the alternate: (again, may not be point 8 but numbered sequentially and logically)

8a) It is admitted a note was signed by Person Z on <date>

8b) This note was not executed as a deed, and no consideration was received in exchange for it, thus no enforceable contract can be formed by it.

8c) Thus the claimant’s action in contract is fatally flawed, and bound to fail in the absence of an enforceable contract.

9) The Claimant's claim to be entitled to payment of £[insert figure from their  POC]  or any other sum, or relief of any kind is denied.
<\end example>
 

 

The aim is to make it simple enough for a child to follow.....

a) it impresses the court,

b) it focuses on the key issues at law, and key matters in dispute. (The court can then decide who they believe to formulate what they believe happened, and apply their interpretation of the law to that to reach their decision!)

 

Both of these are adding to your credibility and making it easier for the court to see the legal basis for your defence, and

c) when faced with this the claimant may see sense and withdraw (although, after so long ... I somehow doubt it!)

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by BazzaS

[rippedoff15]

Many thanks for all the information, i have to double check court paper issued on 13th Match and the last day to submit the defence will be on 14th April by 4pm ?

 

Just don`t want to make any mistakes