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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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EPC ANPR PCN - Lease car - overstay- M&B - Old White Lion - East Finchley **CANCELLED BY PUB**


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Hi again

Embarrassingly, this is the second PCN I have received from a Private Company in 2023! 

 I have not had a parking ticket for years before this and now 2 in the space of 6 months!

I met a friend at a pub which I have visited many times in the past and often parked in their car park when there was space. 

As it was a quiet evening i thought nothing of it that there were spaces available, had a drink, chatted to my friend and went home. 

I saw no signs at all, either on my way in or on my way out!

I was shocked a few days later when I received an email from the company I lease my car from that I had been given a PCN - see attached. 

Following advice on here i did nothing. 

I then received a notice to hirer around mid December and then a Final Notification Letter on 20 Jan 2024. 

I have not responded at all.

What is the best move now?

Thanks everyone!

Laoise

 

 

EPC NTH+NTK+Final notice .pdf

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please complete this:

please dont forget next time to READ upload and REDACT letters you put up!! and we need bothsides of every letter too. one multipage pdf for them all is acceptable.

ive done if for you this time

dx

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to EPC ANPR PCN - Lease car - overstay- M&B - Old White Lion - East Finchley

I see that you received the original PCN that was sent to Leaseplan as well as your Notice to Hirer. Did you also receive a copy of your Hire contract and a copy of your agreement that you are responsible for parking tickets etc.?

They have already made one mistake with their Notice to Hirer inasmuch as they should have given you 23 days to respond rather than the usual 28 days.  Could you please confirm that the other documents  were sent to you along with the PCNs.

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1 Date of the infringement 28/11/2023

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 05/12/2023
 

3 Date received 13/12/2023 (via email from leasing company)
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Y
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] N
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N
 

7 Who is the parking company? Euro Car Parks

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Old White Lion pub, East Finchley
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. POPLA

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here

Notice to Hirer dated 14/12/2023

Final Notification Letter dated 20/01/2024

I also received 2 letters from Leaseplan:

1. to let me know that ":We have given your details to the relevant authority transferring liability of this offence to you."

2. THIRD PARTY AUTHORISATION LETTER

Hi - I didnt receive a copy of my hire contract or copy of the agreement. 

Would Leaseplan need to have sent this or the parking company? 

I received a letter from Leaseplan telling me that they had received the pcn and then a third party authorisation letter - see redacted items attached 

 

 

 

docs1 .pdf

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Call or visit the pub and tell them to call off their dogs, they wil say it's out of their hands but it isn't, they can and should tell EuroCP to cease action.

Get on the Pub's social channels and do the same if they don't respond favorably to your visit/call

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again you put up a whole series of single page PDF files that were NOT redacted properly..:frusty:

when told how to properly redact by following our upload guide on how to do it as one mass file..............

do you want these people to find you here.

sorted again and merged to one file.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thank you for posting that information-it puts you in the clear so you do not owe them a penny even if the best lawyer in the Country goes with Euro Car Parks to Court. 

They have made a number of errors -the major one being the Notic to Hirer. That is the most important document for them since in order to win in Court ECP have to comply with The protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  Section 13 and 14 of the Act relate to hire vehicles. S13 is more to do with the Hire company while S14 deals with the hirer and what ECP has to do to comply with the Act.

There first mistake is although they state that they sent you a Notice to Hirer, they have by allowing you 28 days to pay the invoice effectively sent you a Notice to Keeper. Hirers only get 21 days grace to settle the bill. That in itself is enough to kill their case as they have failed to comply with one of the provisions of the Act. And they have tocomply with them all to be able to be able to pursue you.

They then compound their error by asking for the name and address of the driver if you were not the driver. This is necessary with a Notice to Keeper but not on a Notice to Hirer because hen it doesn't matter who was driving ony the hirer is responsible. As ther is no mention of who was driving in the Hire section of the Act, your PCN is not compliant.

And by not sending the Hire contract and the agreement of your responsibility for parking tickets etc they confirmed that not only are they complete idiots [which we already knew] but further ensured that you are not liable at all.

The original PCN to the Lease company is also non compliant but not worth adding since you already more than killer their case. And I doubt that "Your vehicle was not authorised to park" is actually stated on their sign age in the car park.

So need to stress. Just relax and laugh at heir stupid letter from them and their unregulated debt collectors.

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Thank you Lookinforinfo, FTMDAve, DX100uk and Homer67 for helping me.  I feel pretty stupid for not following the protocols for posting attachments.  Thank you for helping with this too!

So, from what I have understood, I can just go to the pub (or social media) and ask them to stop Euro Parks from hounding me.  But apart from that I can do nothing as its unlikely they would be able to win in court anyway so they wont pursue me.  Have I got that right?

Thank you

Laoise

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Well you've seen in your other thread where appeals get you - nowhere.

The pub, on the other hand, will have the power to call their dogs off - and will want to keep customers.

Of course it won't be as easy as that, it will depend if the pub itself called in EPC or if it was head office in case of a chain - but the pub is your starting point.

Is it easy for you to go back there?

We could do with some help from you.

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Elle you are not dealing with a proper company. They have been in the parking business for years but are still incapable of issuing a correct PCN. Now whilse that is good news for you as they are still blissfully unaware that their PCN is not compliant and even if they did know, it still won't stop them trying to scare you into paying.

All you can do is totally ignore all their threats safe in the knowledge that they have no chance of winning and have a good laugh at their expense. However one day they may decide to issue you with a Letter  before claim or a letter of Claim. Please do not ignore those but let us know so we can advise on your next move.

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Having read the correspondence from Leaseplan to you, you also need to inform them that they CANNOT charge an admin fee for their part in this.

It is NOT a Penalty Charge, nor is it a fine. It is simply a speculative invoice. (Check your lease agreement for the wording).

We could do with some help from you.

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Thanks Nicky Boy

I have just checked and this is the relevant clause:

  • an administration fee of up to £25.00 (including VAT) each time we receive and process a fixed penalty, fine, congestion or other charge in connection with the Vehicle or its use. In addition if we pay such charges on your behalf you shall reimburse us in respect of the such payment (see paragraph 2.2 of the Terms and Conditions)

Is this contrary to legislation? 

BTW they did not automatically pay the Parking Charge Notices from Alliance Parking or Euro Parks, but they did pay a Penalty Charge Notice from TFL Red Routes (which I also contested at the time as the sign implied we could park there at specific times to load - but my appeal was rejected).

£25 does seem a lot though for just forwarding an email!

Thanks

Laoise

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a speculative invoice is none of those

its a civil private parking contractual matter.

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Yes - demand the money back, and if they don't play ball go and do chargeback through your bank.

On Google Maps the pub seem to take customer service very seriously and reply to every single review.  So phoning and asking for the manager, or even better going in if the place isn't too far from you, is the road to go down.

 

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We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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17 hours ago, ELLE17 said:

BTW they did not automatically pay the Parking Charge Notices from Alliance Parking or Euro Parks, but they did pay a Penalty Charge Notice from TFL Red Routes

Which shows that they DO know the difference...

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

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  • 4 weeks later...

Thanks for everyone’s help with this pcn.  

I finally had an opportunity go to the pub with the letters and told them I was drinking in their pub that night

they immediately cancelled the ticket.  

They said they put it in place because lots of people were leaving their cars in the car park all day and hopping on the tube.

Once I told them I was legit it was all cancelled. 
i have not yet tackled my lease company but will do so in the next week.  


thanks again everyone

- where do I go to acknowledge a success?

Laoise

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well done!!

thread title updated.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to EPC ANPR PCN - Lease car - overstay- M&B - Old White Lion - East Finchley **CANCELLED BY PUB**

Congratulations Elle!

1 hour ago, ELLE17 said:

- where do I go to acknowledge a success?

There is a donate button further down the page...😝

We're all volunteers, but there are overheads to actually run the website.

And go get that "admin fee" back...

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

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1 hour ago, ELLE17 said:

they immediately cancelled the ticket.

Have you actually got anything to confirm this?

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

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Posted (edited)

That is good news Elle. If you send the Cancellation message  to Leaseplan to show you  hadn't breached anything that might convince them to repay you.

Even if the Pub hadn't cancelled your ticket you still wouldn't have had to pay a penny had it got to Court because ECP did not comply with PoFA. But you would have been deluged with threats from unregulated debt collectors in the meantime.

Edited by lookinforinfo
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Your victory will make it easier to get the admin charge back.

We've had a few cases recently of car hire companies mixing up (or pretending to mix up) Penalty Charge Notices with invoices from a private company.  So Caggers have had to argue it out with them.

But in your case not only was it not a Penalty Charge Notice but it has also been cancelled!

So write to them and demand your money back on the basis that

On 08/02/2024 at 16:23, ELLE17 said:
  • an administration fee of up to £25.00 (including VAT) each time we receive and process a fixed penalty, fine, congestion charge

(a) the invoice was none of these and (b) it has been cancelled by the landowner (obviously attach proof).

As it's in their interests to try to keep the £25, in parallel look up your bank's web pages re chargeback.

Hopefully all will go well but if Leaseplan faff around as soon as you can demand a chargeback through your bank.

BTW, I'd heard all this "chargeback" stuff on the forum but had never been in the position to need one until a year ago.  In my case I had paid for train tickets that were never purchased as the site crashed during purchase.  I wrote to the train company - no reply.  I looked up my bank's chargeback pages - they said I had to give the trader the chance to remedy matters and if they didn't I could do chargeback after 14 days.  The train company never replied.  After 14 days I got on to the bank (RBS).  My money was refunded.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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