Parkingeye ANPR PCN - no return in 2hrs - received after 25 days ? - Leisure West Complex, Feltham

[Lorenz]

Hi, I received a pcn from those bandits at parkingeye for dipping into a free car park twice in one morning, they claim that there's no return within 2 hours.

I read other threads that this notice to the registered keeper must arrive within 14 days but even on their paperwork it says:

Date of event 27/03/2023

Date issued 21/04/2023

 

Am I wrong?

Also, is there a guide on how to deal with this?

The car park is free, in fact there's an agreement with the landowner with the 3 local schools to use the car park, as well as for the 3 businesses there.

It's a massive car park, usually half empty, apart from friday and Saturday night when the business are busy (bowling, bingo and cinema)

 

Thanks

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

Could you let us have the information requested in the forum sticky please? It will help us to advise you.

 

 

HB

[Lorenz]

Hi, thanks.

Here are the answers 

 

1 Date of the infringement 27/03/2023

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 21/04/2023
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'s

 

3 Date received 24/04/2023
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] No
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, bad ones
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Not yet
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A
 

7 Who is the parking company? Parkingeye

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Leisure West Complex, Feltham
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

BPA
 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check HERE

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here N/A

 

Please let me know if you need any further information. 

I would be grateful if you directed me to the correct path to challenge this.

 

From my little research, under PoFA 2012 Section 4 (9) (5) they should've sent me this notice within 14 days.

Do they have any leeway, for example if dvla delayed giving them my details?

 

Thanks

 

2023-04-21 PE PCN for 2023-03-27 no return in 2hrs.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 which governs the parking of cars in private car parks.

As it did not arrive within the regulated 14 day period Parking Eye cannot transfer the charge from the keeper to the drive r -only the driver is liable.

 

As many people are legally able to drive your car and the Courts do not accept that the driver and the keeper are the same person. So they will have their work cut out  to prove who was driving.

 

It is important therefore not to let them know who was driving.

 

For example never claim that "I parked the car......" instead say "The driver parked the car..."

 

When you returned you stayed for longer than the first time so you didn't return to buy something that you had forgotten . . So was there a reason for the return within the banned time which could be claimed as a mitigating reason.

 

[Lorenz]

I don't remember my first visit.

 

It was either a day that I went into the bowling for a burger with my friend, or one of my kids was ill and I picked him up early.

 

The second visit is surely a school pickup followed by parents evening, that's why it's a longer time.

 

I've never known about the non return, the anpr or the max 4 hour stay.

 

Only today I looked at those signs with microscopic writing.

 

It took me 10 minutes to read all of that.

[lookinforinfo]

Another reason why PCNs are cancelled is because the signs are poor. Either because they are insufficient in number to be seen or the font sizes are too small to inform motorists of the critical terms of the car park.

[Lorenz]

Wouldn't the 14 days rule be enough similarly to when councils don't reply to an appeal on time?

[dx100uk]

nope - do you really think that any private parking co. ever abide by (what) rules when 99% of the Public and media think these are FINES, and wet themselves and pay up blindly....very worth the price of a stamp to see if you want to be a mug...

 

dx

 

 

 

[Lorenz]

So what do you suggest?

Reading other threads I should appeal on any basis because they reject the appeal and then go to popla.

My question is: would popla accept that they are out of the 14 days window or are they corrupt?

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

I don't think you'll have read about appealing here, we almost always say not to. It causes more problems thsn it solves.

 

HB

[Lorenz]

Ok, but if it goes to court, wouldn't it be better to show that I tried to solve this rather than ignore?

After all, regardless of the validity of the parking ticket, they sent their communication out of time, so my thinking is that they have zero chance of winning in court.

And if they've been told that I know they're out of time it would look stupid if they started a claim.

Or is my thinking wrong?

[honeybee13]

Ok, but if it goes to court, wouldn't it be better to show that I tried to solve this rather than ignore?

 

Not with a PPC, in our experience. You could end up with pointless letter tennis and could end up outing yourself as driver, which makes defending this more complicated.

 

Your thinking about their case is right, but now is not the time to tell them what they've got wrong. Get ready to play the long game.

 

It would be useful for you to read other threads here to see how a parking case plays out. As far as I can see, you haven't read any.

 

HB

[brassnecked]

You don not appeal to do so is pointless |Parking Fleecer's always turn appeals down, also any court action they might unwisely take would as LFI indicated fail due to non compliance with POFA so long as they don't know whowas driving.  there will be other issues fatal to their case likely inadequate signage with T & C's hidden in a font size you need a magnifying glass to read.

 

Basically you will get some ever more threatening letters some from a powerless paper tiger DCA  they might even add £60 Debt Collection Charge, something expressly forbidden  to try to scrape from the keeper. indeendt was something that was highlighted in PE's favourite case Beavis where it was decided the sum demanded included cost of recovery, so any additional charges abuse of process.

 

You sit on your hands until a Letter Of Claim  arrives.  meanwhile get pictures of the signage at entrance and around the car park in case are ever needed.

[FTMDave]

You mistake the matter of the 14 days.

 

What you've received is an invoice, not a fine.  A private parking company can send out their invoices when they want, like any private company - after 4 days, 14 days, 24 days, 94 days, etc.  It's their choice.  All perfectly legit.  The two industry Codes of Practice both specifically state there is no obligation to send out the invoices within 14 days.

 

However, they have a problem.  They don't know who the driver was.  If they want to use Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to transfer liability to the keeper, then their invoice has to arrive within 14 days, and it hasn't, which puts them in a weak position - and is good news for you! 

 

2 hours ago, Lorenz said:

Ok, but if it goes to court, wouldn't it be better to show that I tried to solve this rather than ignore?

Yes.

 

That stage is called the Pre-Action Protocol.  That is why we say to ignore everything up to the point when they send you a Letter Of Claim under PAPLOC which is when you reply and tell them to take a running jump.

[Nicky Boy]

Been to look on Google spycam...

 

Google Maps

WWW.GOOGLE.COM

---

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

 

The entrance sign says quite clearly "4 hours max stay"... "Customers Only".

You first entered at 12:26 and last exited at 16:32.

A total of 4 hours and 6 minutes, during which you needed to collect children from school to continue your "customer status" visit at the complex.

(A 6 minute overstay is well within the "consideration and "grace" periods allowed by the fleecers own code of practice.)

 

The regulars here will recognise this as a "reverse double dipping" episode.

 

As already mentioned, the advice here is to ignore all communications from the fleecers, until/unless you get a "letter of claim", then come back here.

 

In the meantime take a look at some of the "success" threads to educate yourself on the lowlife Private Parking Companies you're dealing with, the ridiculous claims they make and what to expect further down the line.

Start with recent threads first, because advice and tactics do change over time...

 

 

[brassnecked]

They have nowhere to go to realistically ground a claim with this.

[Lorenz]

4 hours ago, FTMDave said:

You mistake the matter of the 14 days.

 

What you've received is an invoice, not a fine.  A private parking company can send out their invoices when they want, like any private company - after 4 days, 14 days, 24 days, 94 days, etc.  It's their choice.  All perfectly legit.  The two industry Codes of Practice both specifically state there is no obligation to send out the invoices within 14 days.

 

However, they have a problem.  They don't know who the driver was.  If they want to use Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to transfer liability to the keeper, then their invoice has to arrive within 14 days, and it hasn't, which puts them in a weak position - and is good news for you! 

 

Yes.

 

That stage is called the Pre-Action Protocol.  That is why we say to ignore everything up to the point when they send you a Letter Of Claim under PAPLOC which is when you reply and tell them to take a running jump.

I don't understand. 

You say that I mistake the 14 days rule, then you say that as they don't know the driver the 14 days apply.

Which one is correct?

[Nicky Boy]

What FTM is saying, is that the fleecers can send PCN's out whenever they want to...

BUT... To be able to transfer liability from the (obviously unknown) driver to the keeper, the PCN MUST arrive within 14 days as per POFA rules.

 

Which is why you NEVER reveal the identity of the driver.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[Lorenz]

Ok, let's see if I understood correctly. 

They've sent me an invoice without mentioning POFA, so they can send that anytime. 

But if they want to take me to court they need to prove that as the registered keeper I am liable to pay under POFA, and they'll fail because of the 14 days limit.

Correct?

[FTMDave]

More or less.

 

However, don't expect them just to shut up.  The vast majority of motorists just blindly pay up due to threats, so expect extreme deforestation.  But they know their case is flawed and so are unlikely to take you to court, and as you say if they did they would lose.

[Lorenz]

Ok, please bear with me.

I need to understand how it is unlikely that they take me to court if I ignore all of their letters.

Wouldn't it make it more likely that they do hoping that I also ignore the court letters? (As many do, see my other thread)

[honeybee13]

You won't be ignoring all of their letters. If they send a Letter of/before Claim, you'll be sending a snotty letter to let them know you'd be trouble if they try court. If they realise the case is unwinnable, they often back off.

 

I did suggest reading other threads here...

 

HB

[Nicky Boy]

Yes,

Read other threads!

 

The site is self help.

 

The volunteers will advise as necessary, but just do not have the time to hold your hand and tell you EVERYTHING.

 

(The Letter of/before Claim scenario has been mentioned 3 times already in this thread.)

Edited April 26, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[brassnecked]

Realistically as POFA not satisfied, so long as someone doesn't out themselves as driver in a pointless Appeal, they have nowhere to go however many threats and admin charges,  that cannot be levied on the keeper anyway to their threatograms.

[Lorenz]

Yes, I read a few threads, but most seem to appeal, then come here for advice.