flaws in defence - costs issue

[simeon1964]

following on from

 

 

The Costs Issue

 

Wrote a letter to the judge for postponement for being unprepared plus leaving the Scott Schedule and all the, all-night prep behind at home.

 

I was a nerve wreck at the court. Judge gave me opportunity to think over the postponement and try to settle. I accepted, the claimant wanted 15k and I proposed 3k.

It appeared the Judge was dealing with the counterclaim as I was still addressed as Defendant…confusing

 

My question to claimant was,

“why did claimant take me to court for £2866.66 when indeed the outstanding was £2513 if he had finished the work.

He replied’ he was not sure of exact amount

 

The judge then picked him up on his application to which he confessed he did not sign the claim application and a friend had done it. He was told it was criminal offence and before she decides sanction him, for his criminal behaviour, she says, she would like to know my views.

On this occasion I said whatever she feels right and the claimant was exonerated and hearing continued

 

2. His counsel asked if I agree with Expert report.?

I replied no because no plasterer /builder would charge £20 to fix damaged wall or fix your electricity for Zero £

(hearing was nerve racking and I didnt do well at all and wasn’t myself as I stammer a lot throughout)

 

The judge went through the items and put her final figure at £1300 for the counterclaim

 

I asked about my cost from claimant losing his setting aside application, she said that the case didn’t have anything to do with this hearing. it was finished at the lower court.

 

Asked about damages for not finishing work.

Again, did get straight response. Just looked silly/confused in the court room.

 

Don’t have this cost to pay unless I borrow or sell.

 

I did not win my counterclaim to the value of £16k , but win for £1,300 while the claimant won for £1,129.

 

Should I have claimed cost for my win and damages:?

I do understand that the claimant might want to say that the case should have gone to small claim and would request their cost, but this would have reduced my cost as well if I was able to claim my cost as well

 

Who exactly have won in this matter?.

 

  Don’t really know if I have been taken advantage of in the court room.

[FTMDave]

Look Simeon, people here have at times become exasperated with you, not because we don't want to help, we do, but you make it so difficult.

 

Surely you must realise that going into court and looking "silly/confused" with such a large amount of money at stake, and then asking "Who exactly have won in this matter?" is not good enough.  You were there, as you were there in the previous set aside hearing.

 

Anyway, to answer your question - basically you lost.

 

You have to pay £7648 by 22 March.  If you don't, it's almost certain you will have high court bailiffs outside your door a few days later.  You don't have to let them in, but if you don't they will keep coming back to try to take away your car/TV/computer/etc.

 

Alternatively you can try to get an agreement with the builder's solicitor to pay this bit by bit - but be aware that that will mean a CCJ and a knackered credit file for six years.

 

Your unpalatable choice.  You'd better decide quickly.  And you'd better keep liaising with the site and not disappearing.

[BazzaS]

Post up the judgement again (minus the bit where you are identified)

 

From what I saw it wasn’t

“I did not win my counterclaim to the value of £16k , but win for £1,300 while the claimant won for £1,129.”, but instead “the claimant won for £2,429 odd, and then your £1300 judgement was deducted, leaving £1,129”

 

so, if I’m correct your post is partial information / misleading, and the overall judgement against you is why you are then on the hook for 6k odds costs, as, overall, you lost, and lost in a case you made it be heard in the fast-track.

 

Just to check, are you posting for you? Or posting on behalf of someone else?.

That would have impact on how much credence we can put on the info you are giving.

Edited March 9, 2023 by BazzaS

[FTMDave]

The judgement is here.  It shouldn't be up to Site Team members to do this, but if we don't you can be damn sure it will never be done.

 

 

Scan2023-03-08_131450 JudgemtMarch23-1.pdf

[stu007]

Hi

 

I have to agree with @FTMDave

 

You need to be more pro active to get the help you need and also stop being so cryptic with information as we need the full facts.

 

As mentioned you LOST in court and the Claimant won

 

Therefore you have to pay are £7,648.19 by 4pm 22nd March 2023

 

 

[BazzaS]

I’m still not sure “I asked about my cost from claimant losing his setting aside application, she said that the case didn’t have anything to do with this hearing. it was finished at the lower court.”

 

Please post up the last judgment relating to the strike out / set aside. I’m not sure you are correct the strike out wasn’t set aside, else how could the judge find for the builder in the amount of £2513.40

[FTMDave]

I've got it here Bazza.  IIRC Simeon said the hearing "got too much for me" or some such, so we've never really understood what happened. 

 

The working assumption was that the builder's claim had gone, and only the counterclaim remained. 

 

Apparently there has been correspondence between Simeon and the builder's solicitor, again none of which we've ever seen, which could have clarified the issue.

 

 

CAg Order TenJan.pdf

[dx100uk]

doesn't understand that in a counterclaim situation , whom was the original CLAIMANT (ie Simeon) that the defendant counterclaims against suddenly actually becomes the DEFENDANT.......

 

and thats only the very surface scratch of what mistakes happened.....

[BazzaS]

A) Claimant (the builder) given relief from sanctions.

so the sanction (the strike out of their claim),  was set aside, and their (the builder’s) claim could continue to be heard.

 

B ) The success of Simeon’s claim for £16,577.12, (which had succeeded when the builders claim was struck out) was set aside, when the builder’s application for relief from sanction was successful.

 

As a result, both claims were heard at the latest hearing, and Simeon’s grossly over-inflated claim was knocked back to the more reasonable sum of £1300 from 16k+, leading to him loosing overall, as the builder succeeded in a higher amount.

 

If the claim had been in the small claims track, costs would have been strictly limited, but because Simeon went for the higher sum (16k+), this was in the fast track, and the sums the builder put towards a solicitor and then a barrister (counsel) need to be reimbursed by Simeon.

 

Is that a fair / accurate summary?

 

 

13 hours ago, simeon1964 said:

I asked about my cost from claimant losing his setting aside application, she said that the case didn’t have anything to do with this hearing. it was finished at the lower court.

 

That'll be because your statement isn't accurate / true:

a) The claimant didn't lose their set aside application, and

b) when they didn't lose their application, the judge back then decided "no order as to costs"

c) it wasn't a lower court, it was a previous hearing at the same County Court,

 

 

13 hours ago, simeon1964 said:

Who exactly have won in this matter?.

 

Not you.

 

13 hours ago, simeon1964 said:

  Don’t really know if I have been taken advantage of in the court room.

 

"Taken advantage of how"?. You lost.

You lost because you failed to show the court you were owed by the builder more than you owed the builder,

You have become liable for significant costs, but that is because the claim was in the fast track, which you caused by the £16k+ (unjustified) size of your claim.

I fail to see how that is being "taken advantage of".

Edited March 10, 2023 by BazzaS

[simeon1964]

I believe that my previous solicitor got court order of over £3k cost against the claimant for judgement by default.

 Could I have set this cost (my cost ) against the claimant cost of 7K awarded against me.

 

 

 

[BazzaS]

Who knows?

how can we tell if we don’t know

a) same case or different case (are the claim no.’s the same?)

b) was this from the same case and you are referring to the judgment against the builder that then later got set aside?

[simeon1964]

9 minutes ago, BazzaS said:

same case or different case (are the claim no.’s the same

 

Yes same case. The claimant originally brought a claim of £2866.66 when it should have been £2513.00 had he completed the job.

i counterclaimed for 16k. He didn't defend his claim and I got a judgement by default. I was ill at the time,  gave the claim to my solicitor to which the claimant agreed to pay £100.00p/week by instalment but I rejected  the offer. My  solicitor went for an order claimant to pay their cost, ( I believe for £3k.} The claimant then made application to set-aside judgement. This cost was mention at the hearing on the 1stMarch and judge says it has nothing to do with the hearing and the claimant's Barrister said the same when we were trying to settle before the hearing?

[honeybee13]

We really need to see correspondence please, summaries aren't helping us.

 

We really don't need this thread to turn into a guessing game like the last one which took up a lot of people's time. Documents please.

 

HB

 

PS Are you in possession of all the documents or are you having to get them from someone else?

[simeon1964]

Scan2023-03-10_074947 £100.pdf

 

25th August 2021 letter from Simeon solicitor to builder.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Those are two scans of the same letter?

 

HB

[simeon1964]

1 minute ago, honeybee13 said:

hose are two scans of the same letter

sorry error on my part. trying to delete one but don't know how

[BazzaS]

Those aren’t the judgments, though.

What is needed are the judgment / orders (suitably redacted to remove personal info).

 

Thanks to the site team we’ve got the ones for 10 Jan 22, and 1 Mar 23.

 

I suspect Simeon is asking about 3k costs that followed on from the 16k success (so it’d be useful to confirm that by seeing the judgment for where Simeon thinks this 3k costs arise : if it’s an order dated before 10 Jan 22, in the same claim no., that’d confirm it). If so, I suspect it was an order dated on or around 19 July 2021.

 

If that is the case, Simeon hasn’t understood that that all got cancelled when the builder’s application to set-aside the strike out of their claim succeeded (when they applied for ‘relief from sanction’) which happened in the order of 10 Jan 22.

 

That’s my guess, but, as ever, who knows until we’ve got ALL the information.

Edited March 10, 2023 by BazzaS

[honeybee13]

30 minutes ago, simeon1964 said:

sorry error on my part. trying to delete one but don't know how

 

I've removed one and added a description so the advisers know which scan it is.

 

HB

[FTMDave]

@BazzaSyour summary in post 9 is spot on.

 

In fact there are a load more disasters along the road: when Simeon originally won he didn't enforce, despite having several months to do so; the builder offered to pay the whole £17 grand off at £100 a week, but Simeon rejected the offer; even recently the builder's solicitor offered £1000 in settlement with both sides paying their own costs, but Simeon refused, saying he could justify the whole 17 grand.

 

Anyway I don't think there's a massive amount to discuss now.  Simeon lost.  And has to pay £7648 by 22 March.  Er - that's it.

 

 

[FTMDave]

4 hours ago, simeon1964 said:

My  solicitor went for an order claimant to pay their cost, ( I believe for £3k.}

The best guess is that this was wiped at the set aside hearing.

 

But we don't know.  We weren't there.  You were there.  Saying "it got too much for me" IIRC or similar is no good.  Surely you took notes.  Surely at the end you asked the judge to explain clearly what they were ordering.

 

We now think that at that hearing (a) the builder's claim was reinstated, and (b) he was allowed to fight your counterclaim.  For an entire year you've allowed us to think (a) that the builder's claim remained booted out and (b) only the counterclaim remained.

 

I remember at one point advising you to write to the builder's solicitor and ridicule the fact he was still going on about the builder's original claim, when in fact the matter had already been litigated upon.  Did you do that?  Presumably not.  It would have clarified the issue.

 

3 hours ago, BazzaS said:

If so, I suspect it was an order dated on or around 19 July 2021.

Bazza is right.  Can we see the court order when you originally won please?  We've never seen this.

[BazzaS]

42 minutes ago, FTMDave said:

@BazzaSyour summary in post 9 is spot on.

……….

even recently the builder's solicitor offered £1000 in settlement with both sides paying their own costs, but Simeon refused, saying he could justify the whole 17 grand.

 

 

I’d said previously about “seizing defeat from the jaws of victory” - if Simeon

a) didn’t understand the process

b) gets nervous and confused in court, and

c) wasn’t sure about the previous strike out,

 

I wonder if these had been highlighted (and the potential costs for the builder if Simeon lost), if then the advice might have been : take the offer (saving 8k based on the subsequent outcome!)

[honeybee13]

@simeon1964, are you going to be able to post up the documents people are asking for over the weekend, please? Otherwise this new thread is going to lose momentum like the last one and cause problems again.

 

HB

[BazzaS]

Do we know if Simeon actually was the defendant in this case?

Towards the end of one of the previous threads they noted that one of the reasons they posted contradictory information was that they sometimes posted (in the first person, as if it was themselves they were taking about) on behalf of 3rd parties….

[honeybee13]

I don't think we do know for sure, Bazza. I did ask yesterday if Simeon needed to get documents from elsewhere because I thought the same as you.

 

HB

[FTMDave]

Now there's a thought.  It would certainly explain him disappearing for months and it being like getting blood out of a stone sometimes getting documents uploaded.