Parking Eye PCN claimform - Welsh signs (Home Bargains) Rhyl wales

[w4ter_Boy]

Hi,

Just after some quick opinions.

My mother received a PCN from Parking Eye (which she foolishly ignored) that they are now escalating to court.

 

My question is about what legal requirements are with regards to signage and it placement. I have placed a brief map of Carpark and signage.

 

Could it be argued that their is no signage on the entrance to the carpark however their is a sign on the exit side. Additionally, this sign is in Welsh a language that is not understandable to my mother.

 

However, she genuinely missed this sign due to its position anyway.

 

Is the contract effectively entered into by entering the carpark? if so, would the lack of / position of signage be an issue for Parking Eyes claim.

 

Many thanks,

 

WB & Mum

01 - Entrance.pdf

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

 

 

[w4ter_Boy]

Hi Thanks,

I will see what further information I can get from my mother.

 

All I know so far, is that she has received a claim form for the courts and she has filled this in and returned it the the courts. She has disputed the claim on the grounds of the lack of signage along with the welsh language barrier.

 

Since then, she has received a further letter from the courts an N180.

 

It mentions agreeing to mediation and she wants to know if this is the best route?

 

Also, it asks if she agrees for the case to be settled by a judge without either party going to court, again she is unsure what to say.

 

 

Thanks again 

WB

Edited February 5, 2023 by w4ter_Boy

[dx100uk]

she does not agree to mediation

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/347310-legal-n180-directions-questionnaire-small-claims-track-correct-at-sept-2016/#comment-5088148

3 copies

yes to mediation (unless you filed our Statute Barred Defence OR this is a claim for a Private Parking Ticket)

1 wit you

Suitability for determination without a hearing? no (read all the posts in N180 link above for the reason)

the rest is obv

1 to the court

1 to sols (omit phone/sig/email)

1 for your file

 

 

can you PLEASE

get everything in /out scanned read our upload guide carefully (one mass PDF ONLY!!)

bothside of EVERY document to date  but NOT any of the claimform pack. BUT we need to SEE the defence she filed.

 

did she send a CPR 31.14??

 

dx

[labrat]

Just to add extra information

 

This has come up before, not sure of outcome

 

 

Woman fined for not understanding Home Bargains' Welsh language sign claims she was 'misled' - North Wales Live

WWW.GOOGLE.COM

---

The sign has even caused confusion among Welsh speakers

 

 

The sign at the entrance is Welsh only

 

There is from streetview a single sign in English

 

 retrospective permission for the cameras was given 2018

 

https://planning.denbighshire.gov.uk/planning/search-applications?civica.query.FullTextSearch=LL18 2DF#VIEW?RefType=PBDC&KeyNo=27702

 

 

 

Although here's an oddity

 

The plans that were approved for planning permission shows the ANPR cameras in a different location

 

Seems they should cover the rear carpark, instead they have been mounted in a place that covers the entryway

Edited February 6, 2023 by labrat
Added more info

[brassnecked]

That's Home bargains in Rhyl there are issues with parking Eye signs in Wales they have some in English, but it would be unreasonable to have only Welsh at the entrance as Rhyl is a holiday resort (allegedly) and could expect many non Welsh speaker's to go to that site.

 

There is another entrance to that car park about 300 metres away off to the left past the buildings on the left that come out by the H Bridge.  different T & C's might apply to that part

 

So the team can assess the best advice as to what to put in a Witness Statement, what was the contravention they issued an Invoice for?

[Nicky Boy]

On Google streetview, the sign at the "other" entrance is exactly the sme.

 

Interestingly, unlike the first entrance, there is an English version facing inwards on the same pole.

 

The fact that there are English versions scattered around the site demonstrates their admission that English versions are needed.

 

They just neglect to put English signs at the most important point... the entrance!

Edited February 6, 2023 by Nicky Boy

[brassnecked]

Exactly, as many use the other entrance for longer term parking, and won't actually be using Home bargains at all.

 

[Anawilliam850]

The specifics of signage and contract formation would depend on the specific legal jurisdiction and case law.

 

Generally, a parking contract is considered to be formed when a driver enters a car park and parks their vehicle in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking, which are usually displayed on signs within the car park.

 

The requirement for signage at the entrance and exit, as well as the language used, would also depend on local laws and regulations.

 

If the signs are not clear or are in a language not understood by the driver, it could potentially be argued that the contract was not formed, or that the terms and conditions were not effectively communicated to the driver.

 

It is important to note that each case is unique and the outcome may vary depending on the specifics of the case.

 

I would suggest consulting with a legal professional for a more comprehensive assessment of your situation.

[brassnecked]

Thing is Anawilliams850, parking Eye and PPC's are not honest broker's and a Legal professional might not be fully aware of how the PPC Business Model works.  If w4ter_boy can fill in the details requested in the sticky posted by DX100 at Post# 2 the Team can see what the fleecer's are asking for, and what reason they give for the invoice, and now court claim

 

 

[w4ter_Boy]

Hi,

Sorry for the delay in coming back to you all.

 

From what I can understand Parking Eye issued their invoice for "Breach of Contract".

 

Please see some attached / listed correspondence  that my mum has received.

 

P Eye Letter 01 - 06/08/2022  - Invoice for £85 (ignored) apparent previous letter never received.
P Eye Letter 02 - 15/09/2022 Letter Before Action (ignored).

 

Court Letter 01 - Claim Form N9B - Sometime in November 2022 (mum did not take a copy)
Court Letter 02 - 21/12/2022 - Acknowledgement of defence form N9B.

Court Letter 03 - 24/01/2023 - Form N180 - Notice of Proposed Allocation to the Small Claims Track

 

 

From what I am told, mum submitted a defence on the the basis of:
 

A) Not seeing / not understanding the entrance sign.

B) Not being able to get a space in a timely manner due to the busy summer season. She required a space close to the store as she had a medical condition at the time, so waited until available.

 

C) Only one till open during busy summer season, long queues all leading to extended stay.

 

However, during all this she was never aware of the limitation on parking durations.


Personally, I feel that she may have submitted a weak defence. As its breach of contract, I doubt the will care as to how busy the store was that day, as the store has nothing to do with the assumed contract.

 

She also mentioned that she did not understand the the signage as it was in Welsh. Whereby the truth is, that she didn't even see the signage as its on the opposite side of the entrance and it was only after she received the PCN that she went back to the carpark to look, and realised that their was a sign on the entrance, but it was in Welsh.

 

I have also visited the carpark, to look at the signage and due to its position (being on the exit side), I was unable to see the sign on the way in, because as I was approaching the entrance a van was at the junction exiting, and the exiting vehicles block the signage, due to it being on the wrong side. If the sign was on the opposite side, the all vehicles entering would see the sign. However, not being a welsh speaker would still not help.

 

To my understanding, the signs at the entrance instruct you to read the T&Cs on the signage within the carpark. However, if you cant see or translate the sign at the entrance, how are you meant to know to look for additional T&Cs to read.

 

 

Once again, many thanks to you all.

 

WB

 

Court Ack of defence + PE PCN Renicer + Letter of Claim.pdf

[brassnecked]

So its going to be Witness Statement time soon looks like the reason was overstay Insufficient signage might be one strand, also if it was busy t and there was queuing the 90 minute time would be insufficient.

 

Other team member's will be along soon, but they may also have some other questions/.  Any chance of getting some photos of the signage there?

 

[w4ter_Boy]

Thanks,

 

So once my mum returns the Form N180 - Notice of Proposed Allocation to the Small Claims Track Questionnaire, what happens next.

 

You mention Whiteness Statement. Will this also form part of her defence, or will this become her official defence and therefore give her the opportunity to put together a more comprehensive statement.

 

Also, I will see if my dad can get some photos of signage tomorrow whilst I am at work. I may not get chance to reply during the day, but will certainly come back to you in the evening.

 

Many thanks.
WB

[brassnecked]

Once allocated to a court and it can be the nearest court to your mother, there will be an exchange of Witness Statements that will give the opportunity to challenge them, the team will advise accordingly, as CAG is also Self Help, would be good if you read up on some other parking Eye threads on CAG to get the picture. Pictures of the car park and an indication where she parked would help, as would a picture of the H Bridge entrance by Lock Stock if all else fails I am about 10 miles from Rhyl so will try to scope out the car park as well.

[dx100uk]

spend your time reading the numerous 'PCN Claimform' threads here

use our enhanced google search box 

 

please dont forget to do

;:
 

 

 

[FTMDave]

The various Codes of Practice require a sign at the entrance, so that's already bad news for PE.

 

An exit sign is ludicrous.  There's no point telling a motorist the car park regulations when the parking event is over!

 

Then she overstayed for 22 minutes.  Once the consideration and grace periods are considered, it's only 7 minutes.  During the busy holiday season it can easily take 7 minutes to drive round and round looking for a space and then later be stuck in a queue of traffic when leaving.

 

If you read this thread it will show you all the stages of the court process  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/406892-highview-parking-anpr-pcn-claimform-urban-exchange-manchester-claim-dismissed/#comments

 

[w4ter_Boy]

Thanks,

my take on the signage is that as it’s a shared entrance bother for entry and exiting, PE may argue that they have a sign on the entrance. 
 

However, taking example from the highway speed signs. If I was to run into a road / junction that had a different speed to the road I was coming off, Then there would be a sign on both side of that junction. 
 

The reason for this, is that exiting vehicles could block the view of the signage on the right hand side. 
 

So therefore, I would assume that the signage on the carpark entrance should follow some similar rules. 
 

thanks,

 

WB

[lookinforinfo]

Where your Mother entered there doesn't appear to be any sign advising that it is a private car park and conditions apply. So they are not offering a contract to park just an invitation to treat. In addition there doesn't appear to be any signs in English that there are terms and conditions to parking there. As they are mis sing, their case fails.

[w4ter_Boy]

Hi all,

Thank you again for your assistance to date, I totally appreciate that this is a self help forum, however your responses and assistance with pointing me in the right direction is greatly appreciated.

If at all possible, could someone assist me in understanding what to do with the form N180 (Directions Questionnaire) as it has to be delivered by this Friday 10/02/2022.

A1 - Do I agree to referral to small claims mediation? (YES or NO) I am unsure how to determine this.

 

B1 - Do I agree that SCT is appropriate? ( I assume YES).

D1 - Determination without hearing? (I assume NO).

E1 - Hearing Venue - (Choose my local Court).
 

E2 - Expert (NO).

E3 - Witnesses ( 1 my Mother).

 

The advise already given in previous posts say to send a copy to:

1. The Court.
2. The Solicitor. - Is this their solicitor, or should my mother seek to get herself one?
3. Keep on file.

 

I don't believe my mother knows who their solicitor is, as foolishly she sent the claim form back to the Court with her initial response / defence form... 

 

It was received rather late by her due to Royal Mail postal strikes and then she just panicked due to deadline being mere days away. Quickly filled it in without much though and returned it to the Court.

 

 

Thanks again, and once we get past the N180 issue / deadline, I will be sure to supply all information that has already been requested in above posts.

 

 

Regards,

WB

[dx100uk]

No to mediation.

 

The rest you have correct 

Wait 30 mins and I'll send you a file with all the info 

 

Out on emergency sheep incident.

 

Dx

[w4ter_Boy]

Thanks @dx100uk much appreciated.

Don't worry too much, I am happy to received additional info tomorrow. 

 

I hope the sheep are ok!

 

Regards,

WB

[dx100uk]

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/347310-legal-n180-directions-questionnaire-small-claims-track-correct-at-sept-2016/#comment-5088148

3 copies

yes to mediation (unless you filed our Statute Barred Defence OR this is a claim for a Private Parking Ticket)

1 wit you

Suitability for determination without a hearing? no (read all the posts in N180 link above for the reason)

the rest is obv

1 to the court

1 to their sols (omit phone/sig/email) if no sols send to claimant

1 for your file

 

dx

[Nicky Boy]

Also, to your other question,  no you don't need to find your own solicitor.

 

The small claims process is intended to be as user friendly as possible. 

 

No judges wearing gowns and wigs!

[w4ter_Boy]

Hi all,

please see details below as previously requested.

 

It turns out my mum did have a copy of the claim form (attached).

 

Which Court have you received the claim from: CCBC - Northampton

 

Name of the Claimant : Parking Eye Ltd

 

Claimants Solicitors: None noted.

 

Date of issue: 21/11/2022

 

Date for AOS - Not sure / don't believe there was was one.

 

Date to submit Defence: Submitted on 06/12/2022

 

 

What is the claim for:

 

1. Claim for monies outstanding from the Defendant in relation to a Parking Charge (reference ***) issued on 28/07/2022.

 

2. The signage clearly displayed throughout Home Bargains Rhyl, Marsh Road, Rhyl, LL18 2DF states that this is private land, managed by ParkingEye Ltd, and that it is subject to terms and conditions, including a max stay period, by which those who park agree to be bound (the contract).

 

3. ParkingEye's ANPR system captured vehicle *** entering and leaving the site on 24/07/2022, and overstaying the max stay period.

 

4. Pursuant of Sch 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, notice has been given to the registered keeper, making them liable for the Parking Charge payable upon breach.

 

 

What is the value of the claim: 

Claim: £85.00

Court Fee: £35.00

Legal Costs: £50.00

TOTAL: £170.00

 

20221121 - Claim Form1.pdf

 

UPDATE:

 

Mum submitted her N180 Questionnaire via post on 08/02/2023 and email on 09/02/2023.

 

On Thursday 9th she received a letter from Parking Eye dated 07/02/2023 offering her a final chance to settle at a reduced rate of £135 with the original claim being £170

 

Then the next day Friday 10th she received a Notice to Proceed from Parking Eye, also dated 07/02/2023.

 

I have attached both letters, should they have any relevance.

 

Is this typical of PE at last minute? or do you think that they know they would lose based on the lack of appropriate signage?

 

Also, has this officially gone to court yet?

or is this still kind of pending until the court officially requests whiteness statement and advises on court date?

 

 

Thanks again,

WB

20230207 - PE Final Offer.pdf 20230207 - PE Notice to Proceed.pdf

[dx100uk]

what is the status of the claim on the mcol website?

 

dx