PCN issued - no photographs uploaded at all.

[eviju]

Parked in a residents` or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge (shared use bay)

 

This was the reasoning for being given a PCN (hire car at the time) - wrote to them straight away stating that there were no pictures taken of the vehicle as none were uploaded on council's website - "no images were found for this PCN!"

 

council responded saying wait until you receive notice to owner but not having photos isn't sufficient grounds as they don't need photos or something along those lines. so hire company were contacted

- gave my details (this is just before Christmas) but no letter was received at my address apart from a letter after the new year stating I needed to pay £110.

 

I wrote back to them via online stating that there were no photos and I had not received a previous letter so why am I being charged £110 already

I also said I wanted to go to independent adjudicator

- they stated a letter was sent on the 19/11/2018 and I missed the opportunity to speak to the independent adjudicator as I didn't respond to the previous letter -

 

Their wording was :

 

a notice to owner was sent to you on ..... this notice provided you with the opportunity to make formal representations. as you failed to make rep a charge certificate (CC) was issued. once a cc has been issued there is no longer the formal right of appeal.

 

the pan has been reviewed and we are satisfied that it remains valid,

 

your representation has been reviewed I must advise you that we issued the pcn because your vehicle was observed pared in a resident's or shared use parking place or zone without either claeary displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge.

 

The CEO had recorded detailed notes at the material time of issuing the pcn and can confirm the contravention has occurredl. the photographic evidence is secondary. it is the responsibility of the driver to insure that they understand the restrictions in place and follow the designated signage.

 

at this stage we have reordered 110 as a gesture of goodwill (whatever you say mate - gesture of goodwill is you not giving me this ticket) 110 payment should be made within 14days blah blah

 

what can I do now?

how do I respond to a letter I never received for adjudicator ?

how can they prove I was parked there

- what if a ticket guy has it in for me and just stuck a ticket on and not provided photos cause I wasn't parked there?

 

thanks for the help

 

oh and to top it off the car was only observed from 13:34pm - 13:34pm

[sgtbush]

Technically all they need is the CEO to observe the vehicle. Photos are secondary but not needed.

[Michael Browne]

Your narrative is muddled, but I think you're saying you didn't receive the Notice to Owner in your name. Even though the council say it was sent, and you say they have now sent the Charge Certificate (where the penalty increases to £165) they are prepared to accept £110.

 

Since you don't seem to have any grounds for the pcn to be cancelled, that's proably the best outcome.

 

The alternative is you wait for the Order for Recovery and make a Witness Statement that you did'nt receive the NtO. That sets it back to the NtO stage where you can make representations and when they are rejected appeal to adjudication, where, on the basis of your non-existent grounds, you will lose.

[Jamberson]

I have to agree with Michael, based on the information you've given. You don't deny parking in a place you weren't permitted, so unless there's more to the story which you haven't told us, I don't see any reason why the PCN will be cancelled, with or without the adjudicator. Therefore, you're now at the best outcome stage - the original, full charge, but none of the extra charges which could be added for non-payment.

[eviju]

So can I say I wasn’t parked there?

[Michael Browne]

So can I say I wasn’t parked there?

 

Yeah, good idea, The council won't cancel the pcn and if you continue the lie to adjudication you open yourslf to a fine of up to £5000.

[eviju]

But if there are no photos how can they prove otherwise?

[Jamberson]

They can't prove you were there, and they don't have to. It will be your word against the CEO who issued the charge - they will refer to his or her notes, the details on the PCN, and the circumstances on the day. They have your vehicle registration, location, times, vehicle colour, make and model - and your claim to have just not been there, or not parked in contravention, without any supporting evidence, will be dismissed.

 

If you lie to an adjudicator, the cances of you being hit with a fine are close to zero, but it's a question of whether you want to spend your time and effort, not to mention the council's resources on fighting a case which is very likely to fail.

[eviju]

How can you prove the ceo is being honest? Do they just believe his / her word and that’s it?

[Michael Browne]

How can you prove the ceo is being honest? Do they just believe his / her word and that’s it?

 

Well, you could prove he was lying by producing evidence that you were parked somewhere else, except of course that you can't.

 

It's odd that you question the honesty of a CEO whilst being perfectly prepared to lie yourself.

[eviju]

I just don’t want to pay £110 - as I’m sure 99% of people here want to get out of doing

[ploddertom]

If it goes to a Warrant then you could be looking at well over £400 or they could remove your vehicle.

[Jamberson]

They can't prove anything - it's a balance of probability. If the CEO says you were there, he or she will automatically be believed, unless you can prove to the contrary.

 

If you read the PCN it will say something along the lines of "the CEO had reason to believe the contravention occurred". Then it's up to you to show why his or her judgement was wrong.

 

If you think about it, were they to uphold appeals just on the basis of no photographs, then any PCN without photographs would be successully appealed with a straight denial. And then that would mean photos would have to become mandatory.

 

As photos are not mandatory, PCNs can be enforced without them, and there's no automatic get-out if there are no photos available.

[Michael Browne]

I just don’t want to pay £110 - as I’m sure 99% of people here want to get out of doing

 

Absolutely, but without sufficient grounds you are going to have to bite the bullet and pay.

 

If you don't within 14 days of their letter, it will go back up to £165 and will escalate even higher if you're not careful.

[MontyIsInnocent]

If you cannot get them on a rock solid technicality, I have always found that coming up with a plausible reason why you were in contravention of their rules is the best tactic. A good story if you like, something which cannot be proved either way, appealing for them to be lenient on this occasion whilst apologising (local council love you to bow down) and stating you will be more careful in the future!

 

Obviously you are past this stage in this instance but I have found the above to work on a number of occasions.

 

I know others may be critical of you not being honest but we must do what we must do to prevent ourselves from being extorted.

[Gick]

I for one am critical of YOU for suggesting that the OP lie! This is completely against the ethos of CAG. We offer advice to combat the lies of others and to support the innocent or confused when dealing with (in this case) officialdom. On the other threads we help to combat lying money grabbers.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Gick
typographical error

[MontyIsInnocent]

I for one am critical of YOU for suggesting that the OP lie! This is completely against the ethos of CAG. We offer advice to combat the lies of others and to support the innocent or confused when dealing with (in this case) officialdom. On the other threads we help to combat lying money grabbers.

 

You're entitled to your opinion but I do not believe what I suggest to to be against the ethos of CAG. It might run contrary to your values, and that's fine.

 

There are any number of threads on the Debt forums with posts from seasoned CAG members advocating that people bypass any moral assessment as to the legitimacy of their "debt".

 

Just as I am saying that we may need to bend the truth on occasion, bypass any moral judgement on that in order to prevent local councils and others reaching into our back pockets.

Edited February 5, 2019 by MontyIsInnocent