Are Court Enforcement Services Ltd fees legal, or not? business EON debt/CCJ

[Ted1983]

Yes. I owe EON the money for electricity. By way of background I have owed EON £4000 in the past and noone turned up in a stab proof vest in my kitchen unannounced.

 

ploddertom said:

It could be the NoE was sent to the same address as all the original CCJ docs. As I have said previously if you decide to go the chargeback route then you then see how quick they will then act. As you have business premises they are allowed to force entry and if there is anything there they will remove immediately, if insufficient they then have the right to obtain a Warrant to force entry to your residential premises - for those that say NO to this then I am sorry but it does happen. The fees will then rise again substantially.

 

At present you have no threat of any further action so why rock the boat. All further action relies on what can happen through the County Court.

 

I am more than willing to rock the boat if two men pretending to be officers of the law have stolen money from me. IMO that is a serious crime! Am I wrong to think so?

[dx100uk]

they are not imposters.

 

 

old and new threads merged

please everyone behave appropriately toward each other.

[Ted1983]

Surely you mean that a notice of enforcement was not received? You must contact the bailiffs and ask if a notice was sent and if so, to what address and the date of the notice. Also ask for a copy to be sent out with the fee breakdown. There needs to be around at least 10 days between the date of the notice and the visit. The bailiff is also required to keep a record of the time that the notice was sent (posted).

 

 

You have gone from the bailiff "dressed in the manner of a policeman" to "impersonating" a policeman. I think you ought to check what impersonating a policeman actually entails. It is a lot more than dressing in similar clothing.

 

Errrr. Impersonating a policeman can be as little as verbal identification AFAIK?

[Whitely]

The NOE must be sent to where the debtor normally lives or trades from. If an address different to these is used then enforcement is not compliant.

 

The EA doesn't have to carry the warrant or writ, but must show on request his authority to enter. He can arrange for the warrant or writ to be viewed.

 

HMRC have clarified that if the creditor is registered for VAT then the creditor bears the cost of this and recovers it from HMRC. In this case, VAT should not have been collected from the debtor.

[Ted1983]

I know that a NOE was not sent as it was not me collected the post last week when it would have arrived, it was my Mother. Im sure the old girl wouldve mentioned it!

[Whitely]

Errrr. Impersonating a policeman can be as little as verbal identification AFAIK?

 

Police Act 1996:

 

S.90

 

(2) Any person who, not being a constable, wears any article of police uniform in circumstances where it gives him an appearance so nearly resembling that of a member of a police force as to be calculated to deceive shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

 

(4)In this section— (a) “article of police uniform” means any article of uniform or any distinctive badge or mark or document of identification usually issued to members of police forces or special constables, or anything having the appearance of such an article, badge, mark or document,

[Ted1983]

Police Act 1996:

 

S.90

 

(2) Any person who, not being a constable, wears any article of police uniform in circumstances where it gives him an appearance so nearly resembling that of a member of a police force as to be calculated to deceive shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

 

(4)In this section— (a) “article of police uniform” means any article of uniform or any distinctive badge or mark or document of identification usually issued to members of police forces or special constables, or anything having the appearance of such an article, badge, mark or document,

 

Seems reasonable. However this is tangential to the matter. If the fees I have been charged are deliberately inflated then I have been stolen from, whether the perpetrator wore a police outfit or a burqa. right?

[ploddertom]

2 Things to do in the morning:

1 - ask E.ON what address they sent all Court docs to and which Court they used

2 - contact the Court and also ask what address inc Postcode they sent everything to

 

Not being funny but it won't be the first time one here that someone else in the family has intercepted the post. You have to stop being fixated by what has happened so far, you must try & address the issue of the unknown CCJ.

[Whitely]

Seems reasonable. However this is tangential to the matter. If the fees I have been charged are deliberately inflated then I have been stolen from, whether the perpetrator wore a police outfit or a burqa. right?

 

Yes, they have overcharged you, in my opinion this was knowingly. They are not 'wet behind the ears', they deal with enforcement every day and know full well what they can and cannot charge.

 

As you didn't receive the court forms, you could apply for a set-aside; however as you have said that if you were aware of the proceedings you would've paid the balance. The judge is going to rightly ask why you didn't pay the debt before Eon started proceedings - you admit you owe the debt so why not pay it when it was due? I'm only saying what the judge will think.

 

I wouldn't deal with the bailiff - go direct to the creditor as they remeain liable for the bailiff's actions. Explain what they have overcharged and why, and tell them you expect a swift resolution. I would argue that only the compliance stage fee is owed, and anything else needs to be refunded.

[Ted1983]

You must think carefully here. I understand that you are angry but if you allow me my input from a neutral perspective, it will be as follows:

The 2 bailiffs were not impersonating police officers. They have not stolen money off you, at worst, they have abused the fee schedule and at best, they are just unaware of what should have been charged.

 

 

If you decide to go for a set aside, you must be aware that there is a cost to make the application and if you lose, you will be expected to pay the other sides costs. If you go for a set aside, enforcement will be suspended, pending the outcome so the reversal of funds is not a risk. If you do a reversal without the set aside, Ploddertom is correct that they will return swiftly.

 

 

If you want to challenge the fee without the set aside, this will have to be by way of detailed assessment. Again there is a risk of costs if you lose.

 

With respect "abused the fees schedule" is a sop. In any other case that would be called theft!

 

Given the two option you outline whats the easiest way to proceed?

[wonkeydonkey]

2 Things to do in the morning:

1 - ask E.ON what address they sent all Court docs to and which Court they used

2 - contact the Court and also ask what address inc Postcode they sent everything to

 

Not being funny but it won't be the first time one here that someone else in the family has intercepted the post. You have to stop being fixated by what has happened so far, you must try & address the issue of the unknown CCJ.

 

Having been in a similar position to the OP all I can add is that...Ploddertom is right with his analysis......the whole scenario hinges on getting to the bottom of the address the Court docs were sent to. Only then can the OP unravel the rest.

[Ted1983]

Whitely said:

Yes, they have overcharged you, in my opinion this was knowingly. They are not 'wet behind the ears', they deal with enforcement every day and know full well what they can and cannot charge.

 

As you didn't receive the court forms, you could apply for a set-aside; however as you have said that if you were aware of the proceedings you would've paid the balance. The judge is going to rightly ask why you didn't pay the debt before Eon started proceedings - you admit you owe the debt so why not pay it when it was due? I'm only saying what the judge will think.

 

I wouldn't deal with the bailiff - go direct to the creditor as they remeain liable for the bailiff's actions. Explain what they have overcharged and why, and tell them you expect a swift resolution. I would argue that only the compliance stage fee is owed, and anything else needs to be refunded.

 

I didnt pay because I didnt have any money (unfortunately). And now I dont have any money once more.

 

wonkeydonkey said:

Having been in a similar position to the OP all I can add is that...Ploddertom is right with his analysis......the whole scenario hinges on getting to the bottom of the address the Court docs were sent to. Only then can the OP unravel the rest.

 

I will contact EON again tomorrow.

[dx100uk]

yes do that

I wouldn't be going down the sabre rattling route till you know ALL the info

 

 

time to leave things there now gentleman

no need to keep repeating yourselves else the thread will be closed again till the op asks the siteteam to re open..

 

 

you have been warned on flamewars before behave for the sake of the OP of this thread

 

 

dx

[Ted1983]

This must be a civilized corner of the interweb.

[Bailiff Advice]

To clarify:

 

A notice of enforcement was not sent. hence I could not have received one.

 

I think the structure of the fees is as you say. However I feel that the notice of enforcement may have deliberatley not been sent in order that higher fees could be charged.

 

I cant believe that you "cant see a major problem" with impersonating an officer in order to steal £600?!?! I imagine that could attract a custodial sentence?

 

I did not receive a claim pack, btw.

 

As I said yesterday, 'set aside' applications are difficult to get accepted. The hurdle that you will have to jump is the courts criteria that you need to have a defence to the original claim. A claim by you that you had not received a claim pack will not be a good enough defence. So far, you have stated that the amount owed was not in dispute but that you could not afford to pay the amount. Suffice to say, my opinion is that such an application is doomed to fail.

 

Also 'set aside' applications are not free. The court fee alone is £255.

 

You have made some disturbing statements. One being that the enforcement agency had deliberately not sent a statutory Notice of Enforcement. As I also said yesterday, you will fail on this point straight away as to NoE is deemed as served under the Interpretation Act unless the contrary can be proved. I cannot see how you can prove that it was not sent.

 

The last comment that the enforcement agent was 'impersonating a police officer in order to steal £600' is also doomed to fail. A very serious complaint was made a few years ago regarding a bailiff dressed to 'impersonate' a police officer and the complaint was thoroughly investigated by both the Lord Chancellor and the IPCC. The complaint was rejected.

 

As I see it, your only valid argument possibly concerns the amount of fees charged. In this respect, the correct procedure is for you to apply for detailed assessment of the fees. Such an application is expensive (a court fee of almost £300). Also, you will need to prepare your case very carefully as there is no evidence of any successful claims made by debtors to these applications.

[Peterbard]

In addition, as said earlier enforcement is not suspended until the outcome of a hearing on a set-aside application. Set aside applications can take months to progress to a hearing. Until the set aside order is made the judgment stands.

 

Nothing to stop the debtor making an additional claim to the HCEO to stay enforcement, however.

[ploddertom]

Hi Bailiff Advice

 

 

I have a question here (and this is for my own benefit as much as anyone else's). If you had bailiffs at your door for a £2,000 judgement debt that you knew nothing about, had never received a letter before claim, response pack or any notification whatsoever, would you just pay the £2,000 (and additional bailiff fees, execution costs and interest) because there was nothing that you could do, or would you expect to be afforded the right to challenge the judgement on the grounds that you had no prior warning of action?

 

 

Of course if successful in any subsequent court action, the applicant would be refunded all court fees paid out. Regarding a detailed assessment, is there any figures or evidence anywhere of failed claims by debtors?

 

 

What this case highlights is that once fees have been taken by bailiffs, it is extremely difficult and indeed risky to attempt to obtain refunds. To me, it seems a very uneven playing field.

 

This is a multi situation question which is best suited to the Discussion area of this Forum as there is no simple answer.

[unclebulgaria67]

You might not be able to. I would not pay, particularly if an enforcement officer shows no paperwork. I would call the Police. If there was no property relating to the business at the OP's house, then there was nothing to take.

 

I suspect all the court papers and notice of enforcement went to the business address. Then when there was no response, a different address was found.

[Peterbard]

Sometimes there is not a simple yes or no answer.

 

Are you saying that a bailiff should withdraw every time a debtor claims he has not heard of the debt? Yes or no.

[honeybee13]

Can we bear in mind that this is an advice thread and not a discussion one please, people?

 

HB

[Ted1983]

Hi Guys,

 

An interesting development has occurred. I've just spoken to EON and the debt I've paid WASNT EVEN MINE!! It was a final payment up to July 2016. My company has only occupied the property from June 2016 though!

[Whitely]

So your name or the name of your business wasn't even on the warrant?

[Ted1983]

What warrant? I aint seen no warrant.

 

Seriously though; I've tried to phone the bailiffs company today; no answer of course.

 

The EON representative insists their bailiffs have "done nothing wrong".

Edited June 29, 2017 by dx100uk

[unclebulgaria67]

Do you have any connection with the business that owed EON this money ?

[brassnecked]

If the debt is not yours EON will probably stonewall, and you might have to take them to court.