Article 50 Discussion

[Guest]

as per my post #97

[unclebulgaria67]

Billions of pounds worth of deals on hold due to Brexit.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1721120/deals-worth-billions-put-on-ice-after-brexit

 

Due to Brexit it is possible the new nuclear power station will not be built, TATA steel will not find a buyer leading to their works being closed with the loss of jobs, Investment in infrastructure including housing will be reduced etc.

 

The question has to be asked, is what cost would be acceptable for the majority of people to feel that Brexit is still worth it ?

[cjcregg]

I agree but, they are not just protesting, they are demanding another chance to have their say because they didn't get what they wanted the first time round. Yes, the referendum was close but the majority of those who voted, voted to leave. That is also democracy and anyone who tries to change that do not deserve to live in a democracy.

 

 

 

Everyone deserves to live in a democracy. Saying some don't invalidates the entire principle. I don't think that there should be another referendum either but then again I don't think there should have been one in the first place.

[Consumer dude]

The idea that the guilt factor can be laid at the door of the majority will of the people, by saying, 'well this deal can't happen and this won't happen because its the wrong decision' is a form of emotional blackmail and all because the corporate elites can't get there own way is outrageous. Best bring on the revolution..

[tobyjugg2]

So a decision or leader is described as the savior of their children to the populace and rides on the wave of a minority's fervent support and that is it?

 

Isnt that what happened with Gaddafi in Libya until some external power (us and the French + the US) bombed him into defeat so another minority took over?

 

 

 

Referendums DO NOT just keep going on forever until the right vote is achieved, just like with the Scottish referendum - where a second is considered quite reasonable if the situation, or knowledge about the situation changes, and the knowledge of the Brexit situation has certainly changed MASSIVELY.

 

If the Brexiters are so certain that the country is behind them, then why do they so FEAR a second referendum now the truth is coming out, rather than the lies they peddled?

A second out vote now would become pretty much unassailable, particularly if it gained a larger margin.

 

 

(I note that Boris the Toad is now demanding everyome else clarify their plan for Brexit, ferkin rich coming from that toerag)

[unclebulgaria67]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700350

 

I think there is a long way to go before article 50 is ever triggered. This article explains that a PM might not have legal authority to trigger article 50, unless directed by Parliament to do so. Parliament might not give permission.

[silverfox1961]

From the same article.

 

The result of the referendum is not in doubt, but we need a process that follows UK law to enact it

 

I don't think it will be a case of Parliament trying to block article 50, just an agreement of when and how to press the red button. Failure to do so would (IMO) trigger a call for a General Election thereby prolonging the process.

If Parliament ignores the will of the people then this country can no longer be called a democracy. David Cameron has abdicated that responsibility to someone else which he should not have done. He should have stayed in position to do the job himself. All this is doing is prolonging things (again). If he really didn't want this outcome, he should never have included it in the previous election manifesto.

I respect all peoples rights to protest however, nothing will come of it. Anyone know how many signatures are now on the petition? More than 17m?

[unclebulgaria67]

From the same article.

 

 

 

I don't think it will be a case of Parliament trying to block article 50, just an agreement of when and how to press the red button. Failure to do so would (IMO) trigger a call for a General Election thereby prolonging the process.

If Parliament ignores the will of the people then this country can no longer be called a democracy. David Cameron has abdicated that responsibility to someone else which he should not have done. He should have stayed in position to do the job himself. All this is doing is prolonging things (again). If he really didn't want this outcome, he should never have included it in the previous election manifesto.

I respect all peoples rights to protest however, nothing will come of it. Anyone know how many signatures are now on the petition? More than 17m?

 

I think this misses the point, in that the referendum bill that was passed by parliament purely enabled it to take place. Unlike the Scots indy ref bill which included clauses that made the result binding, the Brexit ref never made it binding on parliament or government. The result of the Brexit vote does not create any legal power and the next step is for the new Tory PM to start the process of gaining legal authority in parliament to take necessary steps to implement Brexit. As with any bill put before parliament, it can be voted against and if enough MP's vote against, a new PM will not be able to trigger article 50.

 

Will the courts get involved in this legal argument or say it is up to parliament to ensure they follow a legal process ? The government will have obtained legal advice about this already, which might be why Cameron has decided to go. Perhaps the legal advice was that parliament had to pass enabling bills for the whole process from article 50 until the final exit deal is done. This could take a very long time with arguments spread over years. The committee government has set up to look at the whole Brexit process, has to go through 80,000 pages of legislation. Then they have to consider all of the various issues affecting people and business, to see that they don't breach any legal rights or try to minimise any legal claims that might be brought. If they rushed to article 50, it could mean they ended up in a stupid position of having to ask Brussels to extend the 2 year exit period, as it is likely to take much longer.

[buckthorn]

I see the world is queuing up to trade with the UK

on Brexit from the EU. so much for the rubbish spewed out by the inners.

Have some links,

World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit

Daily Mail‎ - 15 hours ago

Countries are lining up to enter trade talks with Britain in the wake of the decision to leave ...

The World Queues Up To Win Trade Deals With Britain After Brexit

Breitbart News‎ - 12 hours ago

Mickey Rourke threatens to beat up former baseball star Lenny Dysktra

Daily Mail‎ - 9 hours ago

More news for World queues up to win trade deals with Britain

________________________________________

World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit: US ...

▶ 2:44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR0zGTJIRWs

2 hours ago - Uploaded by Sheryl Wajid

World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit: US clamouring for a deal while talks are set to ...

The world queues up to win trade deals... - Nick Griffin British Unity ...

1. Cached

The world queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit: America is clamouring for a deal while talks are set to begin with Australia, South...

11 Countries Gearing Up to Strike Trade Deals With Britain | Heat Street

https://heatst.com/uk/11-countries-gearing-up-to-strike-trade-deals-with-britain/

5 days ago - While Brexit doom-mongers have been focussing on the challenges of keeping access to the EU's single market (16% of global trade – less ...

Project fear in ruins as world queues up to win trade deals with Britain ...

http://www.theway.co.uk/news-10253-project-fear-in-ruins-as-world-queues-up-to-win-trad...

1. Cached

Apart from the financial markets returning to normal after Brexit, Nations outside Europe are eyeing opportunities to increase trade with Britain for th.

World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit | Latest ...

news.s3.webdigital.hu/.../world-queues-up-to-win-trade-deals-with-britain-after-brexit

1. Cached

15 hours ago - The country will be free to negotiate its own deals after quitting the EU, and business secretary Sajid Javid (pictured) is already preparing for a ...

Obama stands by 'back of the queue' Brexit warning - how the world ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../eu-referendum-what-the-world-is-saying---britains-historic-d...

1. Cached

25 Jun 2016 - The world woke up to the news that Britain had decided to leave the European union. ... would move to the back of the queue when it comes to trade deals. ... leader, praising the British decision, adding: "freedom has won".

World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit ...

http://www.stormfront.org › News › Newslinks & Articles

1. Cached

I guess the remain people were wrong. World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit | Daily Mail Online.

World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit - Trendolizer

uk.trendolizer.com/.../world-queues-up-to-win-trade-deals-with-britain-after-brexit.ht...

1. Cached

The country will be free to negotiate its own deals after quitting the EU, and business secretary Sajid Javid (pictured) is already preparing for a hectic schedule of ...

World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit: - ZetaBoards

w11.zetaboards.com/UK_Debate_Mk_2/topic/11694954/

1. Cached

6 hours ago - World queues up to win trade deals with Britain after Brexit: US clamouring for a deal while talks are set to begin with Australia, South Korea ...

[tobyjugg2]

I see the world is queuing up to trade with the UK

on Brexit from the EU. so much for the rubbish spewed out by the inners.

.

 

 

where, anywhere in those links is there anything except a TTIP deal with the USA which ANYBODY can have and NOBODY wants, and a loads of unsupported wishful fantasising all quoting each other about deals sometime in the future maybe perhaps hopefully ??

[tobyjugg2]

If we want a real deal with the USA check a real newspaper, not Viz (best of the bunch), the sun or the mail. If you think we want TTIP which would give the UK and its laws to American drug companies - then think again.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-barack-obama-was-right-britain-uk-will-be-at-the-back-of-the-queue-for-trade-deals-says-a7116741.html

 

 

New Zealand exports

Dairy products, meat, wool and wood products, fish, machinery

 

That'll upset our sheep and dairy farmers, and make the balance of payments even worse.

 

 

New Zealand 57th 'largest' importer in the world

Just need another 50 orso like that and we'll be back where we were

 

 

ooops

New Zealand's net external debt has expanded from $76.2 billion to $138.9 billion over the past 14 years with the net contributors to the latest $138.9 billion figure being government $11.2 billion, banks $97.2 billion, other $1.3 billion and inter-company $29.3 billion.

Edited July 4, 2016 by honeybee13
Removing the obv.

[citizenB]

Anyone know how many signatures are now on the petition? More than 17m?

 

 

 

4,114,608 signatures

[citizenB]

Apparently France and Italy are already trying to poach banks from the UK - That is quite worrying when you see that those 2 countries have huge financial problems of their own !

[unclebulgaria67]

Apparently France and Italy are already trying to poach banks from the UK - That is quite worrying when you see that those 2 countries have huge financial problems of their own !

 

The Banks have already started to move some of their staff to other countries. London does a lot of trading on behalf of the Euro area and as soon as it is outside the EU trading area it will have to be moved apparently.

 

Brexit will cost the UK tens of billions and hit the economy for at least 10 years. But many leavers seem to think this is worth it. Is Brussels that bad ?

[citizenB]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/29/was-brexit-fear-a-giant-hoax-or-is-this-the-calm-before-the-next/

[unclebulgaria67]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/29/was-brexit-fear-a-giant-hoax-or-is-this-the-calm-before-the-next/

 

I do regularly read Ambroses articles in the DT, as he gives you many facts which are balanced and not political.

 

There is a possibility that the EU might collapse before any likely exit date is reached. You can bet that Brexit will be blamed, as it caused greater uncertainty. Many EU mainland Banks are in trouble. Deutsche Bank apperently failed a US stress test recently and there is concern about them getting into difficulty, with other Banks also being affected.

 

If we end up in a bad place and Brexit is found to be part of the cause, there will be many within the 17 million voters who regret their decision. This might include many pensioners who become worse off. You may have read of a recent court decision, where a company who took over a UK firm, were judged not to be responsible for final salary pension scheme liabilities. If the economy goes down the pan and pension fund investments struggle, you will see some of them changing pensions, even to those currently drawing pension. You might also see government increasing pension age and freezing pensions over a period.

 

I don't think many who voted in the referendum really thought about the fragility of economies and possible consequences. Both Cameron and Osborne did warn people, but they were labelled as project fear. Also when IMF, IFS, Bank of England etc gave the same warnings, the leave campaign said they often got their forecasts wrong.

[unclebulgaria67]

http://news.sky.com/story/1721871/bank-of-england-signals-150bn-lending-boost

 

BoE has already started to pump money into the system. They are also set to apply more QE later in the year.

 

Brexit, at any cost ?

[obiter dictum]

The way the Pound Stirling contunues to fall against the Euro and USA Dollar i had better start investing in the Zimbabwean dollar

[Consumer dude]

Another crash ?..

[unclebulgaria67]

Another crash ?..

 

It is possible and not necessarily directly linked to Brexit. But the Brexit vote did not help.

 

If people who support Brexit presume that it will happen at any cost, they might be disappointed. MP's and Lords will if necessary stop Brexit if it is not in the countries or peoples interest. But any blocking of Brexit will not happen until the temperature of public opinion has cooled.

[citizenB]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/04/sp-scoffs-at-armageddon-warnings-for-britain/

 

S&P said the eurozone recovery is now in full swing as fiscal austerity eases and QE gains traction, all helped by cheap oil. The growth of consumer credit has jumped from zero to 5.4pc over the last year, and car sales are up 18.4pc.

 

Pessimists counter that the collapse in European bank shares is an early warning sign of trouble ahead. The Euro Stoxx bank index has fallen by half over the past year, with Deutsche Bank plumbing historic depths almost daily.

 

The epicentre of financial stress is in the Italian banking system. Non-performing loans - equal to 18pc of balance sheets - have long been a ticking time-bomb. They have now combined with new EU "bail-in" rules that expose creditors to sweeping haircuts.

 

Most of the banks are shut out of the capital markets and cannot raise fresh money to meet tough banking regulations. Monte dei Paschi di Siena crashed by 14pc on Monday after it was ordered to slash its bad loan book of €46.9bn by a third over the next three years, a near impossible task.

 

 

 

Well it looks to me as though it is the Italian banking system is in crisis and surely cant be due to the Brexit vote ?

 

Faced with a festering crisis that is turning more dangerous by the day, Mr Renzi is preparing to take matters into his own hands and defy the EU authorities. This would be a dramatic escalation, risking a head-on collision with Brussels, Frankfurt and, above all, Berlin.

 

Sources say he is mulling a rescue under Article 107 of the Lisbon Treaty to inject capital, if necessary up to a limit of €40bn raised through sovereign bonds or guarantees. While the action would almost certainly be illegal, it would take years for the European Court to rule on the case.

 

“No prime minister can let his banking system collapse just for the sake of enforcing the EU’s crazy rules,” said one official. “This cannot go on.”

 

 

And it would appear that despite piling in with the others to have a go at Brexit voters, Mr Renzi is also unhappy at the "EU's crazy rules" ?

[unclebulgaria67]

CB

 

Leavers are mostly to blame for any failures in UK caused by their votes and any knock on effect in the EU. They were warned. It was not all project fear. The leave campaign won, because they could use some exaggerated claims by remain to attack them and get some people who are anti establishment to vote leave.

 

Interesting comments from Ken Clarke on Tory leader candidates.

http://news.sky.com/story/1721982/watch-ken-clarke-ridicules-tory-candidates

[honeybee13]

I like the comments about Gove by Rifkind.

[Guest]

I like the comments about Gove by Rifkind.

'Sir Malcolm Rifkind has said he is “hugely amused” after being caught on camera with former Conservative Cabinet minister Ken Clarke ridiculing candidates in the party’s leadership contest. It comes after the former colleagues – apparently unaware they were being filmed – said that Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, was so right-wing he would likely start wars with “at least three countries” and that Mr Clarke did not really think Andrea Leadsom, the energy minister, wanted to leave the EU....'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ken-clarke-malcolm-rifkind-sky-news-tory-leadership-contest-remarks-video-a7120931.html

[unclebulgaria67]

Pound sinks to lowest level for decades.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721016

 

Investment in the UK is now at risk, as people lose confidence. There have been problems in other markets, most likely partly due to Brexit.

 

Those who voted leave will have to accept the consequences of their votes on the whole of the UK and those abroad who suffer from after shocks.

 

The media are trying to get 'their man' Gove into no.10. This is Gove who allegedly gave the Sun newspaper their frontpage of the Queen not liking the EU. The Queen was brought into politics by Murdochs newspapers in order to get their anti EU position accepted by the British public and like the good sheep they are they voted as instructed.