Employment problems

[soltan]

My lads mum is currently on a two week doctors note from work and has a week off during that period and she thought she would be able to claim the holiday entitlement back because she is on sick, I thought this would be right but her employer says no, could anyone clarify this please. Also her employer has said if she keeps being 'funny' they would take her sick pay away, I can't see how they would be allowed to do this. She has been told that these are stated in the 'employee handbook' she has asked to be furnished with this to no response. Obviousley she wants to clarify the situation asap any help would be great.

[chiefengineer]

In my company, the "Company Handbook" forms part of your contract of employment. As such, a copy is provided when a new employee joins, and updates are made available by e-mail whenever a change is made. Has she never seen the Company Handbook? Is it mentioned in her Contract of Employment?

 

I am not sure of the sick vs annual leave question. However, I am sure I've heard of people getting time as sick as opposed to annual leave.

 

Jeremy

[soltan]

I do not know if she has seen it she asked for a copy today, told her I know if I'm sick from work I get my leave back, although I didn't know if this was applicable to all employers or at their discretion.

[patdavies]

That can remove her sick pay. They are only obliged to pay her SSP if they have claimed it (this is actually what the doctor's certificate is for) Unless it is in her T&C that she is entitled to be paid as normal for being signed off sick - some employers do continue to pay standard basic salary but they are not obliged to.

 

Mine for instance, like most will only pay a maximum number of weeks.

 

One ray of light is that if her employers claim SSP for the whole period - including the time she is supposed to be on holiday, then they are committing fraud unless they give her the holiday back.

[Neville145]

As a Personnel Manager and a Union Rep I may be able to help further.

 

Please email me with further details and Company in question.

 

Neville.

[r60nda]

It depends what the company's sickness policy is, where I am if you are ill before you go off on annual leave and as long as you inform your immediate line manager you do get your annual leave back as such. If you have started your annual leave and then become sick then no you don't get it back unfortunately it's then 'one of those things'.

 

The bit about if she gets funny we'll take her sick pay away does not sound right to me and it's hard to comment without knowing all the facts, the only time an employer would not pay sick pay is if the employer felt that the sickness wasn't genuine and then you have to prove that which isn't always easy.

 

Like Neville, I'm also an HR Manager and if you need any advice let me know.

 

Rhonda

[soltan]

Cheers ev ery1 for the advice she goin solic 2mz because they wouln't send her t and c and there was abit of a scene about it. I know at my works all sickness is deemed genuine that is how they get away with sickness warnings even when u hav docs note.

[Movingon]

Cheers ev ery1 for the advice she goin solic 2mz because they wouln't send her t and c and there was abit of a scene about it. I know at my works all sickness is deemed genuine that is how they get away with sickness warnings even when u hav docs note.

 

Sorry, could you please repeat that in English? Not everyone is familiar with whatever that language is...

[soltan]

Sorry was in a bit of a rush 'cheers everyone for the advice, she is going to see a solicitor tomorror, because they would not send her the tems and conditions of employment. There was a scene about it, I know at my work all sickness is deemed genuine, that is how they get away with sickness warnings even when you have a doctors certificate.

[Movingon]

Sorry was in a bit of a rush 'cheers everyone for the advice, she is going to see a solicitor tomorror, because they would not send her the tems and conditions of employment. There was a scene about it, I know at my work all sickness is deemed genuine, that is how they get away with sickness warnings even when you have a doctors certificate.

 

 

This is one bit I don't get at all... surely if all sickness is genuine (i.e. it's a REAL illness) then a person can't be warned or told off for it?!

[soltan]

They warn if you have to many in a certain space of time, I believe they do it as a way of making the calculations for the amount of absences easy to understand then it is the discretion of the person charged with giving the warning as to issue it or not.

[Neville145]

Even if you are off with genuine sickness you can still be discplined for it regardless of whether or not you have a doctors note.

 

As per the contract, you have to attend work as per your hours. It is your responsibility to attend work.

 

The only time things get taking into consideration is when they are mitigating circumstances ie: in hospital, car crash etc

 

Neville.

[Movingon]

Even if you are off with genuine sickness you can still be discplined for it regardless of whether or not you have a doctors note.

 

As per the contract, you have to attend work as per your hours. It is your responsibility to attend work.

 

The only time things get taking into consideration is when they are mitigating circumstances ie: in hospital, car crash etc

 

Neville.

 

I never heard such tripe in all my life... how on Earth can you be disciplined for being sick?! What the hell gives anyone the right to decide I've been naughty if I'm off with the shingles or something?! .

[Neville145]

Phone an employment solicitor if you dont believe me.

 

Its my daily jobas an Hr Manager and I am a Union Rep so it a good position dont you think.

[cadencealex]

Is her job one that sees a high turnover of staff frequently, by any chance?

 

They don't seem very trusting of their staff.

[Cazziebo]

I never heard such tripe in all my life... how on Earth can you be disciplined for being sick?! What the hell gives anyone the right to decide I've been naughty if I'm off with the shingles or something?! .

 

Neville is 100% right here. The issue isn't on whether someone is "sick" or not, it's about atendance. If an employee is unable to attend work then they are not fulfilling their contract. The Disability Discrimination Act recently came into play and that does protect people with certain conditions from disciplinary action.

 

But outside of that, every company will have a standard (ie 3 absences in a rolling 12 month period or something like that) and disciplinary action may be taken if an employee exceeds that.

[bathgatebuyer]

We certainly have the same thing in my place. If you have more than 2 single day absences in a 6 month period, it's a 'meeting' with HR to discuss the situation. One more and it's a disciplinary. The best thing to do is go in with any contagious illness you have an inflict it on your colleagues. I did that once before in an office and within 3 days, 4 other people were off with projectile vomiting. As Spike Milligan's epitaph was to say, "See, I told you I was ill".

 

A stupid rule which does little more than force the genuinely ill to go into work and either makes everyone else ill or ruins their own health even more. I was terrified in my own place recently when I came off my bike, knocked unconscious and taken kept in hospital for the day because they thought I had internal bleeding. My first call was to the office, "I'm so so so sorry ,I've came off my bike, I'm in hospital, I'm really really sorry......................". I phoned my family 8 hours later.

 

I hate work.

[Movingon]

Neville is 100% right here. The issue isn't on whether someone is "sick" or not, it's about atendance. If an employee is unable to attend work then they are not fulfilling their contract. The Disability Discrimination Act recently came into play and that does protect people with certain conditions from disciplinary action.

 

But outside of that, every company will have a standard (ie 3 absences in a rolling 12 month period or something like that) and disciplinary action may be taken if an employee exceeds that.

 

Well, I'm sorry but if anyone tried to discipline ME for being sick I'm afraid they'd get short shrift from me... good gods you can't control illness!! It's not something I can turn on or off!

[patdavies]

Tesco are one who follow this policy.

 

My son was given a formal warning after being of sick twice in a month.

[poppynurse]

My hubbie was dismissed from his place of work following several periods of abscence - caused by an injury sustained at work, he got compensation for the accident eventually but they still sacked him for 'excessive' time off

[soltan]

would he not be able to claim unfair dismissal because of it? It seems to me just because companys operate this policy does not mean it is right especially if taken to a tribunal.

[JonCris]

Phone an employment solicitor if you dont believe me.

 

Its my daily jobas an Hr Manager and I am a Union Rep so it a good position dont you think.

 

Neville. I agree with stonelaughter.

 

Unless I'v misunderstood you, what your suggesting is nonsence as it would amount to either constructive dismissal, assuming it went that far &/or even worse for the employer, disability discrimination. Also as a HR professional AND a Union Rep (which union) (isn't that a bit like running with the hare & the hounds) I'm surprised you don't know that

An employer has to have a very good reason to dismiss an employee who is absent through sickness such as not being able to do their job. Even then they must look to the possability of offering alternative employment. To even warn them about their continued sickness could result in a claim for stress unless that sickness directly & considerably effects the cost effectiveness of the company.

 

If you don't believe me I can certainly reccomend a very good law practice which only acts for unions & has offices throughout the country.

[JonCris]

My hubbie was dismissed from his place of work following several periods of abscence - caused by an injury sustained at work, he got compensation for the accident eventually but they still sacked him for 'excessive' time off

 

To poppynurse & to all of those who say they have or know someone who has been disiplined or dismissed for sickness. It does happen, all the time but I would say they have not despite what the employer claims been treated fairly or within the provisions of the Employment Act & as a result have a claim against their present or former employer.

 

Again poppynurse if your spouse was dismissed as a direct result of sickness caused by an injury at work then his employers employment liabilty insurers (ELI) wouldn't be vey happy as the insured had just increased the cost of their liablity as such conduct will add to the amount being claimed & may attract a huge Smith & Manchester addition to the claim. A S&M claim is added if the former employees future employment prospects are reduced due to the injury

 

Also the ET's & courts in general are not best pleased when an employer injures an employee & then has the unmitigated gall to dismiss them, just like so much cannon fodder, because they are ill as a result.

 

As for Tesco & their much vaunted employee & elf & safety policies don't get me started

[JonCris]

would he not be able to claim unfair dismissal because of it? It seems to me just because companys operate this policy does not mean it is right especially if taken to a tribunal.

 

Soltan Correct

 

Employers acting a bit like the banks really

 

After most of our experiences with the banks prove why are some here assuming other business's are anymore honest they aren't not if they can get away with it.

 

I know of a number of large companies, many household names, who frequently flout the employment laws. They do it because it's more cost effective as contrary to popular belief only a very few employees actualy take them to court. Most just accept their fate assuming their employer must be right

[tim2718281]

Even if you are off with genuine sickness you can still be discplined for it regardless of whether or not you have a doctors note.

 

As per the contract, you have to attend work as per your hours. It is your responsibility to attend work.

 

The only time things get taking into consideration is when they are mitigating circumstances ie: in hospital, car crash etc

 

Neville.

 

Sharply, *no*.

 

It is *illegal* for you to attend work if that would constitute a health or safety hazard to yourself or others. It's against the Health and safety at Work Act.

 

Tim