Business rates debt will i go to prison???

[Shelley7t8]

Hi all,

 

Im hoping some of you may be able to give me some advice...

 

To cut a really long story short my husband had a 5year lease on a pub. It was his dream and it was doing very well.

 

2 years ago he became ill and was diagnosed with terminal cancer, he subsequently passed away and i put a manager in the pub to keep it going.

 

I arranged with the brewery to transfer the lease in to my own name and what happened some 12 months later.

 

 

I have since hit some rocky times with a succession of bad managers and not enough time to focus al my attention on it

since i had a job of my own which i needed to carry on in order to support my family.

 

 

I was never able to draw anything from the pub as it didnt turn enough profit and i have ended up putting 30k of my own money into it to keep it funded.

Sadly, i decided to give notice as i could no longer deal with the stress and received no help from the brewery. I have a few months left.

 

In the meantime debts have been building to suppliers, mainly business rates and utilities.

The utilities are in the pub name.

The rates are in my name at the oub address.

I have no money left to pay these at all.

 

 

The weekly takings just about cover rent to the brewery,

and unless that is paid they will jot release a beer order which would lead to obvious problems.

 

 

I am paying the staff wages and other day to day costs personally where i can

but its gettng hard and ive not been paying my own mortgage somtimes just to keep it going.

they have recently obtained a liability order for the rates so i know a bailiff visit will be imminent.

 

There are no assets on site that would cover it.

What will they do?

 

 

More worryingly, as i will not have been able to clear it before i leave what happens next?

 

 

Im worried about them outting a warrent out for my arrest or something

and also that i wont know about it as ill no longer have acces to the post that goes to the pub

but i dont really want to give them my home add incase they then come there to take everything....

 

Please could someone advise what will happen and what is my course of action...

 

Thankyou in advance...

 

S

[honeybee13]

Hi Shelley, welcome to CAG.

 

Weekends are always a bit quieter here, but people should be along later with advice for you. Please bear with us until they're able to get here.

 

My best, HB

[honeybee13]

Duplicate threads merged.

 

Shelley, if you can't see what you just posted, try clicking on the Refresh button of your browser.

 

HB

[i hate bailiffs]

It would to be safe to say that you will NOT go to prison

Being short of money is not a reason to go to prison

 

There are millions of liability orders issued each year

Things are a little different as you are a business as entry rights are different to that of residential addresses

 

How far along are you have the bailiffs written to you yet

Have you contacted the council and made any payment arrangements

 

What tax year does this relate to?

Being in debt is not a crime

[shell7t8]

Hi,

 

It relates to 28th Sept 14 which is when the lease went in to my name through to March this year

BUT the council didn't change it over in to my own name until the end of january because they hadn't been advised of the change by the brewery.

I notified them myself infact because i was worried about it.

 

 

When i got the bill it was for the full amount, no installment plan etc

and it was around the same time i started to hit massive cash flow problems due ot changes to staff

and general time of year and downturn in trade etc.

Jan/Feb are always quiet and the village i am in do a sponsored dryathalon

- good for charity, bad for pub owners as no one drinks!

 

I received NO paperwork from them until last month a summons saying they were going to get a liability order for business rates and council tax rates.

The hearing was on the 20th April.

I had hoped i might be able to pay it because the brewery were going ot offer me a reduction in ren

t which has now gone in but it took them from Jan to now to get it signed off and implimented.

 

I have had nothing from any bailiffs in writing - do they have to do that?

I thought once the liability order was granted they just turned up anytime...

 

I'm so worried as i'm on the verge of losing everything but the pressure of that i can cope with compared to the threat of going to prison!

 

 

I am worried that they will try to say i had been dragging over the exchange to get away with not paying it which was not the case at all,

i was waiting for the brewery to action everything and it took them a long time due to complexities with it previously being in my husbands name etc.

 

What will happen next,

will the bailiff allow me to pay by installments even though it is a business?

 

 

There are no assets of my own there - everything is part of the fixtures and fittings provided by the brewry.

 

S

[i hate bailiffs]

You need to contact the council tomorrow and make a payment arrangement with them

Otherwise bailiffs will get involved and costs

 

Bailiffs will write to you but that will cost £75 so dealing with the council before it gets to that stage

 

Many councils now pass the liability order onto bailiffs fairly quickly

There will be no prison

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Committal Proceedings

If you are a sole trader rather than a company and all other recovery methods have been unsuccessful we can apply to the Magistrates' Court for your committal to prison for non-payment of business rates. We would prefer not to take this course of action but if all other methods have failed and you have not contacted us to make an arrangement we will be left with no alternative.

 

If you do not sort the matter with them, the above can apply. Although ihatebailiffs seems to think it cant, it can, and I does. I often pick up people on arrest warrants to be taken to magi courts for this offence.

 

They will however, normally, try everything else to enforce first. So if you are at the first stage, then you have time to contact and make arrangements to pay. How much are we talking about?

 

They will find you at your home address whether you give them address or not. You are better trying to speak to the council and sorting BEFORE bailiffs get involved. Councils can sometimes be very helpful in these circumstances.

 

All in all, do not bury your head. You need to face up to this and deal with it. Coming here and speaking to us is a good first step.

[mikeymack2002]

RE: Post #7

 

 

You can find the full quote here as there are many more options before the stage of committal see here for yourself prison is a last resort for those WILFULLY refusing to pay.... There are as many different options open for recovery than prison, scare tactics from an EA see the 7 other options that are available too... See the link below

 

http://brent.gov.uk/business/business-rates/what-happens-if-i-do-not-pay/

 

 

I think it's only fair of GTSTL to show the full quote and not just a section that satisfies the EA as in this case. Horrible scare tactics, yes it is one of MANY options please be fair and let a debtor see the WHOLE set of options please

[mikeymack2002]

Note to OP as you know now that this is a priority debt and you need to speak to the Council concerned, even though they will say it's with the bailiff in some cases the Council can take the case back.

 

 

Have you sought professional legal advise yet? Are the brewery aware of how bad things are? they may offer you some assistance and help you to get back on your feet. Have you considered this option either?

[i hate bailiffs]

 

If you do not sort the matter with them, the above can apply. Although ihatebailiffs seems to think it cant, it can, and I does. I often pick up people on arrest warrants to be taken to magi courts for this offence.

.

 

What is the offence it is notwillfully refusing to pay

I wonder how many people you pick up and put before the magi court have the judge remit the debt

 

There are millions apon millions of liability orders issued each year it has never been a crime to fall on to hard times

And prison won't happen in this case

[Bailiff Advice]

Shelley.

 

Each year there are over 3.5 million Liability Orders and the vast majority are issued due to financial difficulties and although committal is an option it must be understood that this course of action may only ever be considered by a Judge when ALL other forms of enforcement have failed and secondly, where the debtor is WILFULLY REFUSING to pay. It is for this precise reason that I will always advise debtors to write to the bailiff company and outline a sensible payment proposal. In that way you can never be accused of refusing to pay.

 

When writing you should provide the same background information that you have given above and it is very important that you mention that you do not have any assets as these are either owned by the brewery or are fixture and fittings.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

RE: Post #7

 

 

You can find the full quote here as there are many more options before the stage of committal see here for yourself prison is a last resort for those WILFULLY refusing to pay.... There are as many different options open for recovery than prison, scare tactics from an EA see the 7 other options that are available too... See the link below

 

http://brent.gov.uk/business/business-rates/what-happens-if-i-do-not-pay/

 

 

I think it's only fair of GTSTL to show the full quote and not just a section that satisfies the EA as in this case. Horrible scare tactics, yes it is one of MANY options please be fair and let a debtor see the WHOLE set of options please

 

My response was to ihatebailiffs who said you cant go to prison. Just pointing out that you can.

 

Its not a scare tactic from the EA. Jail has nothing to do with the EA. It the LA that threatens and goes for that and its a fact of life if you don't pay. And yes, its a wilful refusal to pay but just making an offer wont matter unless payments etc are started. We see it constantly where someone makes an offer of payment, doesn't pay a penny, and then claims they cant be jailed.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

What is the offence it is notwillfully refusing to pay

I wonder how many people you pick up and put before the magi court have the judge remit the debt

 

There are millions apon millions of liability orders issued each year it has never been a crime to fall on to hard times

And prison won't happen in this case

 

Why won't prison happen? What's your reasoning behind that statement? Is the op safe to ignore this matter then?

[mikeymack2002]

All my post was about GTSTL was for the WHOLE options to be made available not a selection of one, it is best when advising a debtor correctly is to give ALL the options available not just ONE.

 

 

An observation really that's all

[Conniff]

Committal Proceedings

If you are a sole trader rather than a company and all other recovery methods have been unsuccessful we can apply to the Magistrates' Court for your committal to prison for non-payment of business rates. We would prefer not to take this course of action but if all other methods have failed and you have not contacted us to make an arrangement we will be left with no alternative.

 

If you do not sort the matter with them, the above can apply. Although ihatebailiffs seems to think it cant, it can, and I does. I often pick up people on arrest warrants to be taken to magi courts for this offence.

 

They will however, normally, try everything else to enforce first. So if you are at the first stage, then you have time to contact and make arrangements to pay. How much are we talking about?

 

They will find you at your home address whether you give them address or not. You are better trying to speak to the council and sorting BEFORE bailiffs get involved. Councils can sometimes be very helpful in these circumstances.

 

All in all, do not bury your head. You need to face up to this and deal with it. Coming here and speaking to us is a good first step.

 

 

Are you sure of this, there is a huge chasm between can't pay and won't pay ??

[Coughdrop]

Committal Proceedings

If you are a sole trader rather than a company and all other recovery methods have been unsuccessful we can apply to the Magistrates' Court for your committal to prison for non-payment of business rates. We would prefer not to take this course of action but if all other methods have failed and you have not contacted us to make an arrangement we will be left with no alternative.

 

 

Why won't prison happen? What's your reasoning behind that statement? Is the op safe to ignore this matter then?

 

Of course it's not safe for the OP to ignore this, but one thing is 100% sure, prison would never happen the way you have implied above.

 

You (as in EA's) cannot apply to a Magistrates' Court for anyone's commital to prison, only the Council could do this, and in this case with the OP wanting to get things resolved, it is highly unlikely that any court would go down that route even if it ever got that far.

 

It does seem to be a frequent threat used by bailiffs which not only can they not carry out, but they should never be making the threat in the first place.

[mikeymack2002]

Rather than flame this thread can we get back trying to advise the OP please save other thoughts for a different thread

[Coughdrop]

Rather than flame this thread can we get back trying to advise the OP please save other thoughts for a different thread

 

Not thoughts Mikey - fact. I agree the thread should focus on helping the OP, but stating the EA might apply for commital is not helping them. Sorry, but that needed correcting.

[mikeymack2002]

He has now been corrected how can we now help the OP without scaring them half to death?

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

Of course it's not safe for the OP to ignore this, but one thing is 100% sure, prison would never happen the way you have implied above.

 

You (as in EA's) cannot apply to a Magistrates' Court for anyone's commital to prison, only the Council could do this, and in this case with the OP wanting to get things resolved, it is highly unlikely that any court would go down that route even if it ever got that far.

 

It does seem to be a frequent threat used by bailiffs which not only can they not carry out, but they should never be making the threat in the first place.

 

Not a bailiff quote. Copied from the Brent council website. I have never said the bailiff made that threat.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

He has now been corrected how can we now help the OP without scaring them half to death?

 

No I am correct. Not corrected. The op just need to speak to the council or the bailiffs to sort this out. Its been made clear prison would be a last option, but it is an option if she ignores the matter.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

And its actually clear in my post that its possible IF all other options have failed and the debtor fails to make arrangements to pay.

[mikeymack2002]

Not a bailiff quote. Copied from the Brent council website. I have never said the bailiff made that threat.

 

 

You implied that is what YOU can do you can not end of.. Or the Magistrates could revoke the entire debt or some of it did you put that down NO.. BYE

[Coughdrop]

Not a bailiff quote. Copied from the Brent council website. I have never said the bailiff made that threat.

 

Nor me, I used the word 'implied' - the implication was there. I corrected it in order to stop the OP being unnecessarily scared or threatened. Little point arguing over it now.

[i hate bailiffs]

Being short of money is not a reason to go to prison

 

 

For the benefit of grumpy

taken from post 4

Hope you understand that OK

Now:focus: