Who owns my car now?

[nmf_66]

it's a bit of a long story but the basic facts of my case are:

 

i) I have outstanding unpaid parking tickets issued by my local council

ii) at least one of those tickets has gone to northampton county court who have issued a seizure warrant for the car.

iii) baliffs came to seize the vehicle but failed to identify themselves to me as such.

iv) a situation arose thereafter that has resulted in the police seizing my car under PACE (basically the car is now part of a criminal investigation)

v) the police have told me that they intend to release the car into the posession of the baliffs when they have finished with it as they view it as the property of n'hampton county court and their appointed agents (the baliffs)

 

I need some serious help here guys. What if anything can i do?

[ploddertom]

I'll move you to the Bailiff Forum first and see what response you get.

 

Did the Bailiff actually seize the car & did he leave you a Notice of Seizure?

[renegadeimp]

Northampton wont issue a warrant for seizure. They just issue an order for bailiffs to collect the money. You also need to know that the police rarely ever know what bailiffs can and cant do. Most of them usually fall victim to the bailiffs lies.

[nmf_66]

thanks plodderton

 

no i haven't been issued anything to say they are allowed to take my car. They have left me their usual threat notice which of course says i owe them lots of cash.

 

thanks renegadeimp

so what if the rozzers do give my car to the baliffs?

[renegadeimp]

Then you need to go through the process to get it back, especially if it illegally/unlawfully taken. It really sounds as if the police officers are ignorant to bailiff law and are pretty much being taken for a ride by the bailiffs.

 

You could contact the Chief Superintendent as the regular officers rarely ever know anything about bailiffs.

[Conniff]

Someone once told me that the entrance exam to Hendon has as the first question 'name'. If you answer 'doh' to that then you are excused from answering any further questions and it is classed as an automatic pass.

[nmf_66]

yeah very funny thanks coniff but i'm in some serious doo doo here so i need some serious help

[unclebulgaria67]

Where is the car being kept ?

 

What notice did the Police provide ?

 

What criminal investigation are the Police following ?

 

Do you have any issue with the PCN's issued by the local council ? They should have written to you, before this ended up with a liability order through Northampton.

 

The bailiffs that visited must have been certificated, otherwise their attempted seizure would be invalid and the Police could not release the car to them. Perhaps ask the Police to make sure that the bailiffs who visited were certificated.

[renegadeimp]

yeah very funny thanks coniff but i'm in some serious doo doo here so i need some serious help

 

He is being serious. The police rarely ever know what bailiffs can and cant do. I would issue a full complaint to the Chief Superintendant. If they release the car to the bailiffs when the bailiff has no right to take it, then the police become culpable.

[nmf_66]

didn't sound that serious but ok not really important. What would the nature of the complaint to the C.S. be?

the car is being kept in a compound used by the police for storage

 

there was no notice - they first refused to release the car to me because they said (in front of my solicitor) it was the property of n'hampton c.c. When I pointed out to them that it was not their duty and probably illegal for them to act on behalf of a civil court or baliffs they then quickly changed tack and said it had in fact been seized under PACE.

 

don't really want to answer the next question on a public forum.

 

I have issue that the pcn was issued to me on a public highway and as a member of the public i have been fined for parking on my own property. There was correspondence from the council but i mistakenly chose to ignore it.

 

I have no idea if the baliffs were certificated.

[renegadeimp]

Nmf ive said it before, but you NEED to get the CSI involved and also issue a full complaint to the bailiffs office.

[hallowitch]

if you have been given a notice of sezure from them the bailiff then the car belongs to the them

if you have not recived such a notice then the car belongs to you

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/contents/made

 

if you scroll down to APPENDIX 2 FORMS on this link the form 7 is a notice of seizure

 

look here to see if the bailiff is on the certificated bailiff register

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377382-Certificated-Bailiff-Register-Updated

[nmf_66]

ok so i complain to the csi - about what and in what terms (sorry to sound so thick but i really am flying blind here)

[lamma]

"if you have been given a notice of sezure from them the bailiff then the car belongs to the them " I am sorry but that is utterly wrong. The car (the goods) is in the custody of the law when seized in execution. Custody is by no means ownership.

[unclebulgaria67]

The car is still yours, but held in custody by the Police while they investigate an issue they must have.

 

The Police can only release the car to bailiffs following the bailiff providing proof they are certified by the courts and following a court order. Challenge the Police to make sure that they check the basis on which the bailiff is operating.

[phaitun]

go to the police station TODAY ask for the duty inspector and don't leave until you speak with him. fir a car to be seized under PACE there has to be a lawful investigation or reasonable grounds that a criminal offence has been committed and the car is linked somehow to that offence.

 

There are other powers under SOCAP that are usually around documents, parking, obstruction issues.

 

it seems the police were helping the baillifs most probably for an easy solution to the problem they faced.

 

it was seized unlawfully in my opinion and the police will be charged storage for it- they will want rid asap.

 

without a court order the bailiffs have no right to the car, in any case it's a civil matter the police should only have been present to prevent s breach of the peace.

 

the duty inspector is duty bound to take your complaint, you will need all your docs to prove ownership and any

letters from the court etc.

 

the police don't want to get involved in civil issues they probably seized it to make their job easier however I think they had NO power to do so in this case. just my opinion having worked for both police and bailiffs previously.

 

the duty inspector TODAY is the key to get the car released to you.

[nmf_66]

thanks phaitun

 

some good points there but i did exactly what you said on friday and that is when they told me they had seized the car under PACE so i don't have much grounds for complaint there. Like I say my main concern is that they seemed to think it will be lawful for them to give my property to someone else.

 

but initially they told me and my solicitor they were seizing under civil law so have they committed any proceedral error that will enable me to get my car back sooner ?

Edited May 27, 2013 by nmf_66

[phaitun]

for a car to be seized as evidence under pace there has to be a criminal investigation. ask them what criminal offense is being investigated?, what grounds are there to seize the car? what evidence does the car provide in relation to that investigation? under what section of pace was the car seized? what officer seized it? this should be a formal complaint TODAY

[phaitun]

it's a bit like the requirements of stop and search you MUST be told the grounds, otherwise it's a plain abuse of process/power and they are relying on your ignorance of the law.

 

You will probably get fobbed off PACE is quite clear and there are lots of payouts out of courto every year by uk police forces for exactly these kinds of scenarios

[nmf_66]

ok mate looks like a trip down the local nick for me then.

If they cannot give me the right answers today do i get my car back immediately?

[renegadeimp]

Nope. They still have to investigate and make sure what they are doing is legal. Thats why we told you to go over the heads of the regular officers.

[tomtubby]

I would like to provide a satisfactory response but it is difficult without knowing a bit more information.

 

Firstly, the warrant of execution is NOT issued by Northampton CC. Instead, the Traffic Enforcement Centre (part of Northampton CCBC ) give authority for the local authority to ISSUE the warrant.

 

Next, the warrant permits the bailiff to seize goods belonging to the debtor.

 

Do you know how many of the PCN are subject to warrants?

 

I am "assuming" that a bailiff visited you or located your vehicle by way of ANPR. Please confirm.

 

If the bailiff "seized" the vehicle then there is a legal obligation on that bailiff to provide a Form 7: Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory. Was this provided to you? If not....have the police or your solicitor requested a copy?

 

Have you seen a copy of he warrant of execution?

 

Please do NOT take this the wrong way and I apologise if I am wrong but I am "assuming" that a bailiff clamped the vehicle and somewhere along the line....the clamp was removed and the bailiff reported the car as "stolen". If I am wrong, I do apologise. If right, the police will need to be satisfied that the car was legally seized and that all of the documentation is in order.

 

Are you able to say which bailiff company is involved?

 

Is the car on finance and roughly how much is it worth?

[nmf_66]

ok i'll try to tell you as much as i can but obviously as i am under investigation i have to be careful because i'm unsure what i can and can't say in public

 

i)there is 1 pcn subject to a judgement by n'hmpton county court but there are 2 more in the pipeline.

 

ii) the baliffs tried to seize my vehicle as i was getting into it outside my home address. They failed to identify themselves to me and up to this moment have failed to do so.

 

iii) i have had no Form 7 given to me or has it even been mentioned to me, the police (to my knowledge) or my solicitor.

 

iv) i have not seen a copy of the warrant of execution

 

v) during their attempt to seize the vehicle an alleged assault took place and an alleged incident of dangerous driving for which i have been arrested and am currently on police bail for (i deny alleged charges against me)

 

vi) the car was not clamped

 

vii) the company is bristow and sutor

 

viii) the car is not on finance and is worth around £4000.

 

it's all a bit of a mess really

[tomtubby]

As a matter of urgency your solicitor needs to ensure that he asks the police to confirm whether:

 

1) They have obtained evidence that the bailiff was certificated.

 

2) They have seen the Warrant of Execution. This is vitally important to ensure that the warrant is against the right person at the current address and that it has not expired

 

3) There is a LEGAL obligation for a bailiff to provide a Form 7 ( Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory).

 

4) You need to request a copy of the electronic Screen Shot of the account from the bailiff company.