work programme after 2 years

[Dom86]

I just been on UJ, and on the job postings I didn't apply too, I used the drop-down box to select a reason why I didn't apply. These reasons are not showing up on my activity history?

[Dom86]

aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, just rang Seetec, appalling attitude, unhelpful, unconcerned, and assumed that I didn't live any further than 1 hour and half away, which I challenged her on and corrected her, and she didn't like it one bit. Threated me that if I didn't attend they would just send me to any old unpaid job to wherever they like. I said what jobs have you got, she said "none", will have to phone around. Then I said will any of these jobs lead to paid employment, NO.

 

I said why cant they send me to a more easily accessible and less expensive office to get too, I offered her a suggestion, and she said that it is out of the Jobcentre area or something like that, she even mentioned another office which is even more appropriate than my suggestion, and this office is in the same town I did the Work Programme, so how is it the Work Programme office is in the Jobcentre area, but not MWA? I assume the DWP didn't do a good job with the contracts then.

 

:mad2:

Edited July 23, 2013 by Dom86

[Dom86]

I swear I'm not sure how much more of this bull**** I can take! I'm scared I'm going to flip right out soon.

[Bakatcha]

So whats the time length, between completing an 'employment measure', and being avaiable once again for another employment measure?

I have no idea! It depends on the interpretation of "recent".

If you want to know the answer then I suggest you make a FOI request to the DWP.

[Bakatcha]

So whats the time length, between completing an 'employment measure', and being avaiable once again for another employment measure?

I have no idea! It depends on the interpretation of "recent".

If you want to know the answer then I suggest you make a FOI request to the DWP.

On second thoughts maybe this is better left vague as that way it precludes a smartass advisor from pointing out the exact period required and leaves room for "discussion" should the need arise.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Bakatcha

[jasta11]

I was threated, my adviser said that she didn't want to have to 'Mandate' me to allow access to my UJ.

 

You need to report her. A pity you hadn't recorded her saying that. She can mandate you to creat a UJ account and put up a CV - and that's all she can do.

 

As for the definition of 'recent', common sense would assume something like six months or a year - especially if you've just done something which lasted 2 years. Common sense doesn't figure highly in the JC though, does it. Their version of 'recent' probably means if a claimant has gone a whole week without being on some pointless course then it's high time they had another! Also useful for juggling the employment numbers too.

[Mr.P]

I was threated, my adviser said that she didn't want to have to 'Mandate' me to allow access to my UJ.

You need to report her. A pity you hadn't recorded her saying that. She can mandate you to creat a UJ account and put up a CV - and that's all she can do.

 

Wait until this adviser puts it in writing, then direct her to the UJ manual and lodge a formal complaint - You can not be mandated to give access, nor can you be mandated to post personal information on some $random web site (you are only required to upload a CV - Nowhere does it say that it has to be complete and accurate).

[jadeybags]

I swear I'm not sure how much more of this bull**** I can take! I'm scared I'm going to flip right out soon.

 

Not much comfort I know, but you're not alone. My brother is getting himself in a right 2 & 8, told mum apparently if he loses his flat he's been in 9 yrs, he'll just catch the bus basically....

[Eggman72]

I completed my 2 year stint with Intraining and found it a totally humiliating experience. I then got an appointment with my the jokecentre plus to see an advisory, I assumed to discuss my time there. She has now put a referral in for the mandatory work programme (1 month unpaid). I complete pages of job logs present them regularly and feel put on. I've been treated with depression recently I did not go onto ESA I struggled through and still completed job search etc. This is dragging me down and causing me worry..

[Bakatcha]

I completed my 2 year stint with Intraining and found it a totally humiliating experience. I then got an appointment with my the jokecentre plus to see an advisory, I assumed to discuss my time there. She has now put a referral in for the mandatory work programme (1 month unpaid). I complete pages of job logs present them regularly and feel put on. I've been treated with depression recently I did not go onto ESA I struggled through and still completed job search etc. This is dragging me down and causing me worry..

I assume that by when you say mandatory work programme you mean Mandatory Work Activity (MWA) and that your 2 year stint with Intraining was in fact the Work Programme?

This being the case you should not have been sent on the MWA so soon after finishing the WP. Adviser guidelines specifically say that people should not be made to do MWA if they have recently completed another employment related measure. The WP is an employment related measure.

documents here

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/exit_reports_hit_squads_and_the

Point this out to your adviser.

[Bakatcha]

@Eggman,

More info

MWA (MWA guidance 23.07.12.pdf ) section 18 says:

“Given the policy intent of MWA, the following claimants must not be considered for referral

to MWA:

Those taking part in or recently completed another employment measure

(contracted or non-contracted) aimed at helping them move closer to

the labour market”

In response to this FOI https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/is_the_work_programme_an_employm#incoming-406022

The DWP have confirmed that the WP is an employment-related measure:

“The recorded information we hold that best answers this question is Regulation 3(8) of the

Jobseeker’s Allowance (Schemes for Assisting Persons to Obtain Employment) Regulations

2013, which confirms the Work Programme is an employment-related measure. A link to the

Regulations is provided below:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/a11-6101.pdf ”

SO IF THEY TRY TO SEND YOU ON MWA SHOW THEM THIS FOI AND TELL THEM THAT AS YOU HAVE RECENTLY COMPLETED AN EMPLOYMENT MEASURE (THE WP) YOU ARE INELIGIBLE FOR MWA.

Of course what is “recent” may be open to interpretation, But any interpretation of theirs could be challenged.

 

Use it well, use it wisely.

[TriP]

just thought i'd add -- if your agreement entails "UJM -- X number of steps per week" -- this means you simply need that many entries in your activity history + application history combined. so technically you just need to update your activity history once a week with X number of entries -- you can enter your own dates. even though they may all be registered on the same day, they will still be time stamped appropriately. they cannot force you to log into the service every day or use it to apply for jobs.

[LongHairedLily]

Trip I have been mandated to sign in to my UJM everyday.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

just thought i'd add -- if your agreement entails "UJM -- X number of steps per week" -- this means you simply need that many entries in your activity history + application history combined. so technically you just need to update your activity history once a week with X number of entries -- you can enter your own dates. even though they may all be registered on the same day, they will still be time stamped appropriately. they cannot force you to log into the service every day or use it to apply for jobs.

"UJM -- X number of steps per week"

This could be interpreted as using UJM to generate X Job Leads per week, even if each instance is for a malicious vacancy (such as MI6 Hitman, Drugs Mule etc), and for those instances to be specified in an external Job Diary. Far better that each instance that you find is for a legitimate job vacancy, which you can apply for.

 

Trip I have been mandated to sign in to my UJM everyday.

I guess that the type of agreement that is negotiated with a candidate is contingent on whether the Front Line Adviser (and/or Member of the Hit Squad) is an Extreme Jobsworth, intent on making a point, and prepared to specify activities that they think they can get away with - unless the candidate can negotiate effectively.

[TriP]

I guess that the type of agreement that is negotiated with a candidate is contingent on whether the Front Line Adviser (and/or Member of the Hit Squad) is an Extreme Jobsworth, intent on making a point, and prepared to specify activities that they think they can get away with - unless the candidate can negotiate effectively.

 

that is something worth noting, if you actually tell your fla that you're online every day you can set yourself up for unreasonable activities like this. no one can be expected to have internet access ALL the time -- they may try to argue "but oh, you have a library near you, don't you?" or other such nonsense, but where i live you only get a free half hour per day of library internet time before you have to pay for it.

 

furthermore the vast majority of UJM vacancies are agency based and lacking an 'apply' button which will actually show up on your application history. in this case you need to make your own note about the application, and include the job ref# to support your entry. the UJM cannot be prescribed as a source for generating leads, only for activity record keeping purposes if you didn't opt out of it (which is the smarter option, but expect to be hassled about it every time you come in).

Edited July 24, 2013 by TriP

[RebeccaPidgeon]

that is something worth noting, if you actually tell your fla that you're online every day you can set yourself up for unreasonable activities like this. no one can be expected to have internet access ALL the time -- they may try to argue "but oh, you have a library near you, don't you?" or other such nonsense, but where i live you only get a free half hour per day of library internet time before you have to pay for it.

 

furthermore the vast majority of UJM vacancies are agency based and lacking an 'apply' button which will actually show up on your application history. in this case you need to make your own note about the application, and include the job ref# to support your entry. the UJM cannot be prescribed as a source for generating leads, only for activity record keeping purposes if you didn't opt out of it (which is the smarter option, but expect to be hassled about it every time you come in).

In respect to access to personal IT facilities, if ever raised, you can make the point that your system is archaic, there have been several occasions where the system has crashed and/or unreliable, and may need to acquire a new system shortly. However, just because you may manage an online job search every day, and apply for several vacancies per day because you choose to do so, that is no reason to accept any insolence . where the presumption would be that you that would manage an online job search.

 

In respect to accessing library facilities.... interesting point, particularly if the local library is closed and/or understaffed with IT Help Jockie, where due to antiquated facilities, it takes you 10-15 minutes to log on However, some libraries have started up Job Clubs.

[Mr.P]

that is something worth noting, if you actually tell your fla that you're online every day you can set yourself up for unreasonable activities like this. no one can be expected to have internet access ALL the time -- they may try to argue "but oh, you have a library near you, don't you?" or other such nonsense, but where i live you only get a free half hour per day of library internet time before you have to pay for it.

 

Very true - I got caught out like that a while back. A few months later, had problems with internet and spent two weeks getting an average of 64bits per second - Future JSA agreements centred around paper based searches with "occasional internet access when funds allowed".

[herschel]

Hi. Have been following this thread for the past couple of weeks now. Seem to be in the same boat now as some 900,000 others jobseekers who're coming of the work programme. Thought i'd contribute my 2p's worth and class it as part of jobsearching time for this week.

 

Was referred to the Post Work Program Support some 3 weeks ago, thinking that it was going to be a respite from the Work Program, for people who have fallen victim to the Unemployment nightmare in this economy. Went and met my new adviser on the Tuesday, who turned out to be probably the most militant jobsworth I've ever met (most probably 'hitting' his targets for sanctioning people with flying colors). Was told that i would be signing on either daily or weekly and given a different time each time to go in. Turned out that I was very wrong.

 

For the first week I was made to sign on daily, which fortunately got dropped down to every other day the second week, and has now been reduced to once per week. Went to an 'Employability Skills Assessment Interview' today at the local college, which comprised a maths and english assessment on the computer. Basically in the same situation as before except worse, as I now have to jump through hoops of fire in order to not risk losing the money I rely on for living.

 

It seems that the situation has gone from bad to worse as from being referred to the Work Program in 2011, I moved house to a different location and a different Jobcentre and somehow miraculously slipped off Ingeus's radar so they stopped sending me requests to go to appointments, to my pleasure at the time. So went along as always just signing on every fortnight. Was quite content with the £56.50 at the time but have been trying like a man possesses to get a job anywhere over the past 18 months, but in the small town where I'm from there are no jobs whatsoever for the unemployed and the ones that there being created are being taken straight away by the people who have lost their jobs and have experience. To put it plainly there more jobs being lost than there are being made.

 

Having had pretty much given up looking for a job in June following the hell that I've experienced with employers I thought that this new PWPS would be a safety net for survivors of the Work Programme. However what I have in fact found is that it is more like a conveyor belt leading to a sorting box/ meat grinder. All I can say is be vigilant as this is no resting ground for victims of the Unemployment epidemic and public spending butchering.

 

Ended up referred myself back to the work program to genuinely enroll some help in finding anything. Got referred to an advisor, who was nice, but the experiences I have had with employers have been nothing short of traumatic. Having had gained temporary employment in a retail position at Christmas, I suffered a debilitating motor accident, which meant I couldn't return to work for the last month of my contract. They were getting rid of everyone who was temp regardless, I learned however nobody wants to employ someone with a problem as they are all battling to keep their own heads above water.

 

Don't know how this is all going to play out as the the Government are very much making this whole thing up as they go along as I suppose we all are. Was told at the 'Employability Skills Assessment' today that I was originally referred by my adviser to a 12 week basic Maths and English course, despite having a degree. The lady I spoke to there informed me however that the other which were available to people who were referred were either a course in a) heath and social care, b) production and warehouse, c) business and administration skills or d) retail skills. The courses at the local collage last for 8 weeks and are 2 days per week, 9.30 til 6.30, which doesn't sound that bad. However if they expecting me to do 35 hours a week jobsearching activity on top of that (which I wouldn't put past them), I don't think I'll be able to cope.

 

I think the basic picture is that it's the end of the line for people who rely on jobseekers allowance and they're now pigeonholing everyone into a thing or cutting them off. The last year has felt as if I've been on a treadmill where David Cameron is on the controls, increasing the speed by a notch every fortnight. I think that the general idea is to make everybody run at 60 miles per hour or fly off the machine and lose their food.

 

Can only advise anyone coming on to this new regime to just do as what they say and play the game. Have worked around the Universal Job Match issue by telling my helper (not the advisor), each time she prompts me to Allow Access, quite honestly that I already see and apply for the jobs that come up on there as I check it every couple of days, searching for jobs posted in the last 3 days, within the distance of 10 miles, which is the distance it says I must search for in my agreement. Haven't been mandated/ forced to tick the box as of yet but then haven't seen the Adviser cough fascist since being referred, but will be seeing him on Monday, which I am not looking forward to.

 

I suppose the best thing to do is just stay on top of your job search, do as they say and fill in your jobsearch activity form. For me I have to write to 5 employers per week, phone 2 employers, visit 5 employers and check Universal Job Match daily, and also attend this course. Am worried about the course and whats going to happen during/ afterwards. The fact is that I need my jobseekers allowance in order to stay under the sky. Hope that this may be of help to someone. All I can say is expect that things are almost certainly going to get worse. Just got to cross each bridge as it comes

[RebeccaPidgeon]

@herschel

 

If you dont mind admitting.... which region are you based, and which College were you sent to for remedial Employability Skills Assessment. There is no National Plan, and things are being made up as We go along.

 

Post Work Programme Support

A quaint and novel approach where Front Line Advisers, previously employed within JCP, subscribe to a modicum of internal training, remain mere minions of JCP as Front Line Advisers, and who are subsequently redeployed as members of the Hit Squad.

Edited July 25, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[Chester6]

It looks like they are being more childish and patronising due to the failure of the WP

Signed on and they were 25 minutes late in spite of the notices claiming jobseekers must be on time

Got warned I would be sanctioned for submitting my logs with the same comments that were acceptable downstairs as they claim to be more stringent upstairs inspite of seeing a lady who had already mentioned this but didn't record that she had

Got to do 10 things etc a week and another course that repeats the whole cv, interview etc stuff that was covered during the WP and the previous schemes

I do feel like I am getting punished for being unemployed, for the failure of the WP and the fact that unemployed don't often get chances from employers

 

Has anyone ever found volunteering or the placements to be of any use for them?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

It looks like they are being more childish and patronising due to the failure of the WP

Signed on and they were 25 minutes late in spite of the notices claiming jobseekers must be on time

Got warned I would be sanctioned for submitting my logs with the same comments that were acceptable downstairs as they claim to be more stringent upstairs inspite of seeing a lady who had already mentioned this but didn't record that she had

Got to do 10 things etc a week and another course that repeats the whole cv, interview etc stuff that was covered during the WP and the previous schemes

I do feel like I am getting punished for being unemployed, for the failure of the WP and the fact that unemployed don't often get chances from employers

 

Has anyone ever found volunteering or the placements to be of any use for them?

If you submit Job Logs which accurately reflect your Job Search Strategy, which specify the vacancies that you have applied for, then perhaps you should bring to the attention of the JCP Manager the attitude of the Clerk ... not just in terms of being tardy, and 25 minutes later, but also for offering an ambigious attitude in referring to your Job Diary.

Edited July 25, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[Bakatcha]

Just returned from signing on. As usual a relatively easy time (in spite of a woman threatening to top herself). Didn't even want to see any job search evidence. This has become the norm whilst on the WP. However I was told that as I'm about to exit the tender clutches of A4greed I would now be assigned a new adviser. Hit Squad here I come.

The whole office has been rearranged to cope with the expected flood of Work Programme rejects. The adviser informed me that the ground floor was being cleared to accommodate the hit squad antics of Hoban's Hooligans.

[Chester6]

If you submit Job Logs which accurately reflect your Job Search Strategy, which specify the vacancies that you have applied for, then perhaps you should bring to the attention of the JCP Manager the attitude of the Clerk ... not just in terms of being tardy, and 25 minutes later, bu also for offering an ambigious attitude in referring to your Job Diary.

 

They were accurate as far as downstairs was concerned

Suddenly saying I jobsearch daily and email alerts isn't good enough from going from ground level to first floor

I list what I apply for which was fine

this was the first time someone has claimed I could be sanctioned for this but it's fine downstairs?

 

Thanks for the advice as it's helpful

Edited July 25, 2013 by Chester6
politeness

[RebeccaPidgeon]

They were accurate as far as downstairs was concerned

Suddenly saying I jobsearch daily and email alerts isn't good enough from going from ground level to first floor

I list what I apply for which was fine

this was the first time someone has claimed I could be sanctioned for this but it's fine downstairs?

 

Thanks for the advice as it's helpful

If you apply for specific jobs that reflect the Job Seekers Agreement, and which you are qualified for and capable of doing, then vacuous threats may be all that some FLA have at their dispoal.

 

I think some FLA (either within or without the Hit Squad) will raise the prospect of a Sanction Doubt as a means of bullying candidates, or installing fear within them, rather than adhering to due process... if there is some concern over any issue, then you are likely to have another meeting with a Senior FLA, from which any tenuous Sanction Doubt will emerge, a formal notification will be issued, and you will have the opportunity to defend yourself.

[jasta11]

Sounds a pretty predictable heavy approach by the PWP mob; get in first with the threat of sanctions so the claimant will meekly toe the line..they hope.

 

We need to have the knowledge and be prepared to complain long, loud and to everyone if the advisors step out of line - in other words, get our boot in first (metaphorically speaking, naturally). I've now got the date for my first meeting and I intend to start it by dropping a pile of printed-out guidelines and FOI responses onto the desk as I sit down, with the casual comment 'I've been reading through your guidance.. my, you'll need a good memory for all of this won't you, if you're not to give out incorrect advice and risk complaints from clients?. (Subtlety was never my strong point )

 

Also drop into the conversation very early on that I'm old buddies with 2 district managers and a regional manager, as well as having contacts in the PCS union, that I'm intending to bring a fraud action against Ingeus and have already reported JC advisors for flaunting regulations. Final touch will be to place my mobile phone on the desk pointed at them.

 

See if they want to play nice or nasty and I'll do likewise. There are a few decent FLA's in my jobcentre so it's possible I may get one of them in their new role. I naturally expect the worst though and am prepared for it.

 

*cue theme music from 'Gladiator'*

Edited July 25, 2013 by jasta11