Levy made on car I owned, but now no longer own

[icklepoyser]

Hi

A bailiff is claiming they have made a levy of my 'goods' from "outside the property" in October 2010. I did own a car at this date (on finance, so didn't actually really own it) They are using this levy as basis for enforcing a liability order made against me just before I went bankrupt in Nov 2011. Im aware that if there was no levy made before the bankruptcy then the liability order would make no difference and the council tax debt would still be provable in the bankruptcy (and written off) I believe this is why they are still pursuing me for the debt despite my bankruptcy.

My conundrum is....... even if they accurately identified my car as an asset (I live on a main road in a terrace and often my car would be parked some way down the street) and it is listed on the Levy, what happens now?, as the car was returned to the finance company shortly before the bankruptcy and I am obviously no longer i possession of it. Would this make the Levy void?

any advice would be greatly appreciated

[ploddertom]

If it was leased or on HP then he can go play with his train set. Do you still have any paperwork for this? What was the Bailiff in attendance for?

 

PT

[brassnecked]

As the car was on finance the levy was invalid any way. Didn't you inform the bailiff of the finance at the time? Others will know more about the specifics of bankruptcy and council tax.

[unclebulgaria67]

1) They can't levy on a vehicle that is owned by a finance company or oi they did by mistake, once the finance is proved, the levy would have to be removed, therefore null and void.

 

2) They would have to have given you paperwork at the time confirming the levy. They can't just note the registration of a vehicle that happens to be parked near your house.

 

Suggest that if the bailiffs action is in regard to a council tax liability order, that you write to the council authorities council tax dept, advising them of the situation. If you have any proof of the bankruptcy that you send a copy and in the letter also explain about the car the bailiffs have mysteriously applied a levy on. It would be up to the council authority to resolve this with the bailiffs. Send a copy to the bailiffs, as well, so they know you are in contact with the council.

[icklepoyser]

I still have paperwork for the return of the car..... I believe the bailiff was there specifically to check out my property and gain access to make a levy.... I wasn't in at the time (or they never knocked) until yesterday I had no idea they had this levy - I'd been fighting from the stand point that a levy hadn't been made therefore the liability order didn't stick and the debt was still provable in bankruptcy, therefore I didn't still owe the debt!! they are shocking as they send me letters, despite the bankruptcy asking for £130 per month!! If i had that kind of spare cash my insolvency agent would want to know about it first!!!

They have also added astronomical fees which is a separate issue I will be detailing in a formal complaint to them, the local authourity, and the bailiff regulatory body - before I take it further.......

I have written them a respectful letter today asking for a full breakdown of the fees they've added and details of the levy they believe they have - if they do actually provide me with this info i'll hang them with it!!!

many thanks for your reply

[icklepoyser]

1) They can't levy on a vehicle that is owned by a finance company or oi they did by mistake, once the finance is proved, the levy would have to be removed, therefore null and void.

 

2) They would have to have given you paperwork at the time confirming the levy. They can't just note the registration of a vehicle that happens to be parked near your house.

 

Suggest that if the bailiffs action is in regard to a council tax liability order, that you write to the council authorities council tax dept, advising them of the situation. If you have any proof of the bankruptcy that you send a copy and in the letter also explain about the car the bailiffs have mysteriously applied a levy on. It would be up to the council authority to resolve this with the bailiffs. Send a copy to the bailiffs, as well, so they know you are in contact with the council.

Many thanks I am CC-ing the council tax dept into all correspondence from this point forward I can't believe they think they can get away with this - I have certainly never received any confirmation of a levy made of any of my goods!!!! its like they've plucked it out of thin air!

[ploddertom]

Were you the sole person responsible for the Council Tax at the time this happened or did you have another half that lived with you. The reason for asking is that if there was another living with you at the time then they may turn their attentions to them for payment.

 

PT

[icklepoyser]

nope - it was just little old me. tbh I have no idea how I idn't pay the CT. I moved to the area at a time of extreme trauma in my life and only stayed there for 3 months - I can only think that it just slipped through the net as all other bills, utility etc were paid in ful and up to date. It was a year after leaving before I was contacted by the council about the debt, at which point I already knew I'd be going the bankruptcy route and my advisor at the citizens advice bureau told me to ignore it as it would all be written off with the bankruptcy. it turns out that they filed the liability order just before i could file the bankruptcy. The contention has solely been this issue of the levy (or not)...... hence need to check. the only thing they could have listed is the car that I had at that time (but went before bankruptcy) happy to know that renders their levy void

many many thanks to all

[icklepoyser]

also - do any of you know where these points are listed in a more legal, regulatory kind of format so I can use when quoting in my formal complaints?

[stu007]

Hi icklepoyser

 

Will all my debts be included in my bankruptcy?

 

 

Certain debts cannot be included in your bankruptcy, these are:

• any fine under the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980;
  
• any obligation under an order made in family proceedings or under a maintenance assessment made under the Child Support Act 1991 (except an obligation to pay a lump sum or to pay costs);
  
• any obligation under a confiscation order made under the Drug Trafficking Offences Act 1986, section 71 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 or under Parts 2, 3 or 4 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002; or
  
• a debt to the Student Loans Company for loans under the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990 or The Education (Student Support) Regulations 1998.
  

This means that you will still have to carry on paying these debts and will not be released from them when you are discharged.

 

This info is from the Insovlency Service Website here is the link:

 

http://www.bis.gov.uk/insolvency/personal-insolvency/bankruptcy-what-is-bankruptcy/how-will-bankruptcy-affect-me

 

Also are you still Bankrupt at present and not been Discharged?

 

If you are still Bankrupt then you may have to inform your Trustee in Bankruptcy of this action to keep on the right side of your Bankruptcy.

Edited May 25, 2012 by stu007

[icklepoyser]

Hi

Yes I am still under the bankruptcy - my insolvency is aware of the dealings with the bailiffs and the issue as I email him with updates regularly.

I am aware of what is not included in bankruptcy (hence why I still have a huge student loan to pay when I start working again )

Thanks for clarifying that the council tax debt is included - as I've mentioned, the issue has always been about this levy they claim they have as this will affect the sturdiness of the liability order the made just before I went bankrupt.....

As it appears this levy is probably fictitious or relating to a vehicle I don't own therefore rendering any levy void I am a very happy bunny at present

[brassnecked]

It's possible they are saying they have a levy, in a vain attempt to extort fees from you, their reasoning being the Lo and CTax arrears are in the bankruptcy, but as they make things up as they go along and considerthemselves always right, that somehow the unlawful, and therefore non existent levy, allows them to pursue you outside the bankruptcy for their fees. Thoughts? Either way they are cruising between Bob and no hope, and Bob has left town. What bailiff company is this?

[caledfwlch]

Since the Bailiff can only pursue their levy fees in a county court, I would suggest going Bankrupt has "nulled" the Bailiff fees anyway, so they can go whistle.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Now the Bailiffs state they had a levy on that vehicle from October 2010 but were you ever notified of this levy before proceeding to sell the vehicle?

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi

 

Now the Bailiffs state they had a levy on that vehicle from October 2010 but were you ever notified of this levy before proceeding to sell the vehicle?

 

The finance company took the car back according to the OP, as it was their property.

 

From what I have seen about this, bailiffs will sometimes make an error in applying a levy on a financed vehicle and when they give the debtor the paperwork, they ask them to supply any information that might make the levy invalid i.e. details of finance co. owning the car or it belongs to a company. It sounds like the OP was never given any paperwork and the bailiff company did not check who owned the car.

 

A previous thread may be of interest. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?262730-Has-a-bailiff-quot-levied-quot-upon-a-car-that-is-NOT-owned-by-you-...-LOCAL-GOVERNMENT-OMBUDSMAN-S-Report-!!!!

[brassnecked]

The bailiff has no levy, the finance company reclaimed the vehicle, and Op should send a copy of the finance agreement if they still have one to the bailiff inviting them to track the vehicle and tow it as the new owner will likely sue them

[wonkeydonkey]

Hi

 

Now the Bailiffs state they had a levy on that vehicle from October 2010 but were you ever notified of this levy before proceeding to sell the vehicle?

 

After two years the bailiff will be seen to have 'abandoned' his 'levy' by not acting on it at the time ......

 

WD

[icklepoyser]

wow - i've just popped back in to update the specifics of the situation and see quite a few more responses - which i wasn't notified of

Anyway..... update.....

firstly I wrote to the bailiffs (Bristow & Sutor) to enquire about the Levy to which they replied that a levy was made in Oct 2010 at the address the council tax is owed for (of which i moved out of in March 2010) on a Peugeot 205 - This car was obviously not mine as I was no longer living at the property and had moved back to Derby from Rugby. They went on to say that as they came to realise I no longer lived there they "re-levied" at my current address on 6.1.2012........ I have never let a bailiff into my home so can't see how this has happened...

I called the national debt helpline who have been fantastic with advice on this issue - They advised that the Oct 2010 Levy was invalid and illegal as they levied goods I didn't own. They also stated that as this first levy didn't realistically exist Bristow & Sutor couldn't have "re-levied" - if anything the Jan 2012 levy was their first levy. However, as I went bankrupt in Nov 2011 this second levy was also invalid!!! and the debt would be provable in the bankruptcy....

I set about writing the bailiffs a formal written complaint setting this out and also mentioning their fees (they had charged me for making the Oct 2010 levy!!) I have received their reply this morning.....

They state that they have yet to see evidence from me that the vehicle levied in in Oct 2010 wasn't mine - basically I have to show evidence that i don't/didn't own the vehicle!! BUT that they have abandoned this levy anyway.... and "re-levied" on 6.1.2012, they state that the bailiff recorded meeting me and levied distress in the living room (I had a conversation with a bailiff through my front room window - from which you can see clearly into my front room) they go on to state that "It is irrelevant whether we levied before or after your bankruptcy was granted" explaining - "The liability order was issued in 11.08.11, prior to your bankruptcy, it is valid and so is the subsequent levy in place":mad2:

I rang them this morning to enquire about the goods they have listed on the Jan 2012 levy, they produced a 'vague' list of items - Black Phillips TV (my TV is a BUSH TV!!) 2 piece cream suite (My suite is brown!!) a wooden bookcase, a wooden cabinet (I don't own a wooden cabinet) a wooden table with 4 chairs.

Their letter goes on to state "We respectfully make you aware that although section 285 (3) of the Insolvency Act 1986, may suggest we cannot proceed

after the making of a bankruptcy order no person who is a creditor of the bankrupt in respect of a debt provable in the bankruptcy shall -

(a) Have any remedy against the property or person of the bankrupt in respect of that debt, or

(b) Before the discharge of the bankrupt, commence any action or other legal proceeding against the bankrupt except with the leave of the court and on such terms as the court may impose.

 

However, it has a proviso at the end that the restriction is subject to section 347 (limited right of distress)

(8) Nothing in this group of parts affects a right to distrain otherwise than for rent and any such right is at any time exercisable without restriction against property comprised in a bankrupt's estate, even if that right is expressed by an enactment to be exercisable in like manner as a right to distrain for rent

(9) Any right to distrain against property comprised in a bankrupt's estate is exercisable notwithstanding that the property has vested in the trustees.

 

For what its worth this may as well be written in Russian for all Ive understood!! They concluded their letter by stating that basically they can still continue their distress action against me despite the bankruptcy and have given me 8 days to pay them £766.10!!!

 

Does anyone have any thoughts? any advice?

I also complained to the council at same time of complaining to B&S - I'm waiting their response......

cheers

[caledfwlch]

Well, if they have a recording of the Bailiff in your house, ask to see it!!

 

And ask why, if he performed a levy in the house, you have not signed the WP....

 

I would think also that as a Business, a Bailiff is actually breaking the Data Protection Act by not informing you that he is recording, he cannot claim the covert rights of a private citizen, he is a "professional" working a job.

[brassnecked]

Whatever they claim levy is of insufficient value to cover the debt, £7,700 of goods need to be levied to cover the debt, In any case you should check with your OR as to whether this bill is included in the BR imho

[icklepoyser]

Thanks guys

I questioned the issue of not having signed a walking possession agreement and they said they didn't legally have to get my signature!!

thanks for info re: how much they need to levy to cover debt - is this ratio stated anywhere or me to reference in letters?

I've just fired off another letter to the council as I found Rugby borough Councils Council Tax Recovery Procedure & Legislation Manual which contained obviously sections on bailiff conduct, and i referenced specific point where they haven't behaved themselves!!! then rounded off with the info on here about the government paper advising that councils are responsible for bailiff conduct!!

[brassnecked]

The ratio is a generally used "rule of thumb" based on the prices fetched at auction for goods sold at aucrion by bailiffs which is around 10% of their original cost/value

[outlawla]

The ratio is a generally used "rule of thumb" based on the prices fetched at auction for goods sold at aucrion by bailiffs which is around 10% of their original cost/value

 

That seems – in a round about way – to agree with what this Manchester City council's "bailiff Code of Practice" says....page 30.

 

.....The bailiff should not remove goods for sale unless it is anticipated that the sum realised will be sufficient to settle a reasonable proportion of the account outstanding to the Council (30% to 50%), including costs. As a general rule, the value of the goods can be divided by 5 to give an approximate value if auctioned.

 

(Please note: For Business Rates in some cases the bailiff may still remove goods if the value is less than 30 - 50%, i.e. so that ongoing trading ceases or if it is likely to become insolvent.)

 

 

 

NOTE:

 

The information above is the council's policy and not necessarily law, however, this Local Government Ombudsman's Report, particularly the conclusion at page 8, will give you something to consider on that score.