Recovering Unlawful Bailiff Fees

[ZenPro]

Hey guys - can someone double check my paperwork prior to sending it?

 

A quick breakdown of events is as followed. My gf lives alone and pays council tax monthly.

 

Jan 2011: Registered as missed CT payment but record check confirms it was paid 30 Jan 2011 (Trigger 1st automatic letter from Corby Borough Council)

May 2011: Missed Payment (Trigger 2nd automatic letter)

June 2011: Missed Payment PAID

July 2011: Council tax account fully up to date. Confirmed

Nov 2011: Council tax account fully up to date. Confirmed

 

May 2012: Bailiff arrives at the home of my gf demanding payment of outstanding Council Tax, Court Fees and Associated Costs. GF is shocked. She was not aware of any Court proceedings or outstanding debt.

 

Bailiff is NOT allowed into the house but can view a small portion of her living room from the main door. Bailiff looks through her kitchen window. GF informs bailiff she has no idea what this is regarding or why he is there. Bailiff shows ID and says the Court sent him to recover unpaid council tax and he will remove her possessions from the house to cover the costs.

 

Bailiff requests £442. GF phones Corby Borough Council who advise her to pay the bailiff directly as they cannot accept a payment and no payment plan can be instigated at this late stage.

 

GF pays the Bailiff the full amount requested via Credit Card (panicking she will lose her stuff). GF is THEN handed a seizure of goods notice which he requests she signs.

 

She signs.

 

The Notice details the following costs -

 

£153.0 Council Tax / Court Costs

£24.50 Attendance to Levy Fees

£28.00 Levy Fee

£12.00 Walking Possession Fee

£24.00 Redemption of Goods Fee

£200.0 Van

 

The Notice of Seizure is annotated 'Paid in Full' but no inventory of items is included.

 

I arrived at the property a few minutes after the Bailiff left and contacted Bristow & Sutor to query the events. I did a quick bit of research before the call and the admin assistant maintained that the Bailiff had entered the home and made an inventory. I asked why a Van Fee had been added when no goods were removed from the property.

 

Admin Assistant maintained all fees were lawful. I told her to expect paperwork in the next few days.

 

 

My next call was to the council to enquire why NO correspondence had been received by my girlfriend including the Court Summons, the Liability Order, the Personal Statement of Payment or the Final Notice. They explained that proof of postage is adequate in the eyes of a Magistrate.

 

However, when queried upon which payments were outstanding the Council assistant informed me that because 2 reminders had been sent for a previous unpaid Council Tax payment (which was settled within 1 calendar month) when a second unpaid council tax month arose the system did not send a reminder but instead moved to immediately request a Court Summons as if the original Council Tax payment had been missed.

 

 

Once I have this information then I will file a Form 4: Complaint Against a Bailiff.

 

At this stage Corby Borough Council cannot even confirm which Council Tax Payment is in arrears...

 

Am I right in assuming that the Bailiff has asked for unlawful charges for actions which did not take place?

 

What would the Court considerable 'reasonable costs' for the time needed to recover this money?

[ZenPro]

Letter to Bailiff

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee (with each action listed)

b - the reason for the fee regarding each action

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

[ZenPro]

Letter to Council

 

With reference to the above account and address, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of all council tax payments that have been paid or registered as unpaid from the period dating December 2010 until May 2012.

 

This includes:

1 - the date of any fees paid and the amounts paid

2 - the date of any fees registered as unpaid and the amounts outstanding

3 – the date of all corrspondence dispatched to Ms T Mxxxxxxx requesting payment for unpaid fees

4 – the date, reference and location of any Court Summons including the Magistrate which presided over the hearing

5 – The date of dispatch of any correspondence summoning Ms T Mxxxxxxx to Court proceedings

6 - A copy of the Liability Order regarding Miss T Mxxxxxxx and the date of its dispatch

7 – A copy of the Personal Information Form (required by Ms Mxxxxxxx to inform Corby Borough Council of her planned repayment terms for any outstanding fees) and the date of its dispatch.

8 - A copy of the Final Payment Reminder sent to Ms Mxxxxxx and the date of its dispatch.

9 – Confirmation of the date any Liability Order was passed to a bailiff.

10- Written confirmation that Corby Borough Council received a succession of phone calls from Ms Mxxxxxx on the date 11/05/2012 whereby a bailiff had arrived at the home of Ms Mxxxxxxx who immediately contacted the Corby Borough Council in order to seek advice via TELCO. If no proof or recordings exist then please confirm this in writing.

 

 

Can you please ensure that proof of franking/postage is included for each correspondence. Proof of franking/postage for correspondence is considered as proof of receipt and as such is necessary for a defendant to appeal during any Court Summons. Corby Borough Council are required to provide proof of postage to a Magistrate if requested. If no proof of postage exists for the items requested above please can you confirm this in writing.

 

 

However Corby Borough Council Collections Department confirmed via TELCO dated 11/05/2012 that proof of postage/franking is maintained as standard. The name of the Council employee can be presented if necessary.

I require this information within 14 days.

[ZenPro]

Any advice grateful guys. I am raging at the bullying tactics of these absolute ****, the council were barely more helpful.

[ploddertom]

At present you appear to have covered all bases, may be best to wait to see what you get back.

[brassnecked]

Whatever comes back send a Formal Complaint to head of Revenues council CEO, elected leader and MP, asking why the autmated system has obtained a LO and sent a bailiff when the account was paid in full. I would wait to see what date the council applied for the LO, to make sure it was AFTER the account had been cleared.

Edited May 12, 2012 by brassnecked

[sillygirl1]

The trouble is with automated systems is that nobody seems able to stop the process at any time once it has been started, even if it has been started in error.

 

Obviously somewhere along the line there is a vested interested in not being able to stop the process - ie somebody will get a bonus for x amount of processes started.

 

This whole council tax collection system needs to be reviewed at a high level and the bailiff companies activity severely restricted - many people do not have the money available or the knowledge available to them to fight against the continuing injustice of the council tax collection system.

 

I hope this bailiff gets his licence taken away.

[brassnecked]

I fear Op will be treated as badly as outlawla when they try to reclaim this wrongly extracted cash, and will hide behind rules they make up as they go along, which is why I suggest they start the complaint procedure but involve their MP, to highlight the absurdity of the situation.

Edited May 12, 2012 by brassnecked

[outlawla]

The trouble is with automated systems is that nobody seems able to stop the process at any time once it has been started, even if it has been started in error.

 

Obviously somewhere along the line there is a vested interested in not being able to stop the process - ie somebody will get a bonus for x amount of processes started.

 

This whole council tax collection system needs to be reviewed at a high level and the bailiff companies activity severely restricted - many people do not have the money available or the knowledge available to them to fight against the continuing injustice of the council tax collection system.

 

I hope this bailiff gets his licence taken away.

 

It may be in order for a complete rethink about the way council tax collections are handled. Far too many innocent people are having bailiffs levying their goods, with the subsequent risk that they may force entry to their homes.

 

Council tax orders obtained through the Magistrates’ courts are unreliable. They therefore should not be relied upon by enforcement agents, as evidence that stated amounts of outstanding debt are accurate or that debt even exists. It is reckless then, that bailiffs are allowed to use these liability orders to enforce alleged debt.

 

These court orders are unreliable because applications are not monitored by councils applying for them and magistrates’ courts are rubber stamping applications without any meaningful review of the complaints. This is causing many orders to be passed for enforcement, even where those residents pose no threat of defaulting.

 

The problem is apparently escalated largely due to the lack of human involvement in the process. The need for council staff to be engaged in monitoring the procedure is obvious, but the reason this appears not to happen is probably down to the assumption that an automated operation can and should be relied upon to function autonomously. As evidence confirms in the number of these blunders, such an assumption is very misguided.

 

Because of the cavalier approach to issuing court orders, in certain cases, bailiffs may be pursuing debtors for outstanding amounts equal only to the escalating enforcement fees. This scenario can arise for example, if a debtor has settled outstanding debt with the council by the time a bailiff has been instructed to the case. By this stage, the intransigent council staff or the same from an outsourced agency would refuse to take any interest in the circumstances of the enquiring taxpayer and insist the matter be taken up with their enforcement agent.

 

It has to be remembered that these council tax liability orders can too easily be obtained from the court, however, reversing them is not so straight forward. Reform of the applications process is necessary, which should include more stringent monitoring to reduce the ease with which councils can obtain orders. Allowing this chaos, expense and waste of everyone’s time will undoubtedly continue if nothing is done to address these issues.

[ZenPro]

Thanks guys, I know some of these threads seem to just fizzle out but I start my OU Law Degree in October and I am going as far as possible with all options open to me.

 

I will keep you updated on all responses.

[brassnecked]

Thanks guys, I know some of these threads seem to just fizzle out but I start my OU Law Degree in October and I am going as far as possible with all options open to me.

 

I will keep you updated on all responses.

Keep in there ZenPro, we are here if you need us. As outlawla has said the whole system is shot through with holes, and actually denies due process and a proper check before taking action, to obtain an order, the system basically lacking any real human intervention. Wonder how it equates with the Convention on Human Rights?

[tomtubby]

Sorry....running out of time so will read this post later. But a few points need to be made.

 

First, a Form 4 Complaint is NOT the correct way forward and should be AVOIDED.

 

The van fee is WRONG as there is the need to have a PRIOR VALID LEVY in place before a van attendance can be made.

 

Lastly, it is the LOCAL AUTHORITY who are wholly responsible for the levy and fees charged by THEIR AGENTS. This is why any claim for a refund should be made to the COUNCIL !!!

[Feebee_71]

One quick thing that stands out to me from the OP........

 

The missed payment in January and the 1st letter triggered by it should have no bearing on the 2nd letter sent out in the May as the CT year runs from April to March with payments running from April to January. Unless she was in arrears with her CT and had made arrangements to extend the payment period the process triggered by the missed payment in January should have ended when that payment was brought up to date. In which case the missed payment in May should have triggered a new round of letters starting with 1st missed payment warning.

 

Feebee_71

[alphacenturi71]

Bailiff from Bristow & Sutor arrived at my property today while I was at work, placed a hand written letter through claiming he was here to recover £567.50 outstanding council tax from 2011, Phoned N.E.derbyshire council who informed me that my account was up to date and it was last years account in question nd I would have to contact Bristow & Sutor , Can I ask for the debt to be taken back by the council?

 

Phoned the offices of Bristow & Sutor wanting to arrange 4 x payments of 141.75 to clear the debt, also I offered my bank account details to set up a standing order, as helpful as the girl on the phone was she insisted it was ''still with the bailiff'' so I would have to ring him to make any payment arrangement

 

On phoning to bailiff to explain the situation I was confronted with rudeness and stubborness like I have never heard before, Firstly he insisted he had made ''2'' visits to my property although I only have todays letter?

He also insisted he could not agree any payment plan with me unless he came round again to the property to perform a ''walking possesion'' wich wouch raise the debt to £636.00

I explained to him i worked long hours and had just started divorce proceedings against my wife (true not bs) of which he had no interest what so ever, I pointed out to him i had a car on the drive but he said it had a disabled tax disc so he wont levy that? (my partner is reg disabled)

Sadly after what seemed like forever trying to come to a deal and offering to pay 141.75 there and then he just spoke over me and suggested that I hang up as he ''had other things to do''

 

Im beyond words with this one, payment is not a problem? I would understand his attitude if i claimed not to owe??

 

I know its a little off topic but im really in need of any advice anyone may be able to supply

Edited May 17, 2012 by alphacenturi71

[alphacenturi71]

In addition to the above I have had no notification of court order etc in the post from council, just a revised council tax bill with what looked like revised payments which I took for granted to be last years arrears, also mentioned this to bailiff, again it fell on deaf ears

 

Can I bypass him and go straight to Bristow & Sutor ?,

I also have a tennant who has property in the house and who I don't want knowing my debts not to mention removing her belongings...

Edited May 17, 2012 by alphacenturi71

[wonkeydonkey]

Make sure you get the below from the Council and then use the correct reference number to the account in question and start to make you payments online direct to the Council you must then write a letter headed Formal Complaint and the same is to be put on the envelope you send the letter to the CEO of the Council and advise him/her, that due to the unreasonable behvaiour of their appointed agents B&S denying you the right to pay your CT, you have been positioned to make all future payment direct to the Council and that you refuse to have any further dealing with their agent for whom they are vicariously liable. Should you find you they continue to call on you the matter will be taken through their complaints procedure and if it proves to be a need for intervention by the LGO you will carry that out.

 

Phone the Council and with pen and paer at the ready ask: when you get the answers come back here and caggers will show you the way forward to getting unlawful fees removed.

 

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

[alphacenturi71]

Many thanks wonkey for your reply, will phone them in the morning, will post updates asap

 

I had hoped I could take this approach with them as it seems to me the baliff in question is noting more than a ''jobsworth''

 

Thanks again

alphacenturi71

[brassnecked]

Follow what WD has suggested, there is actually NO LAW that compels you to either speak to or deal with a bailiff.

[alphacenturi71]

Letter sent to N.E.Derbyshire Council today, do I need to add or omit anything?

 

 

 

 

 

 

18.05.12

 

 

 

 

With reference to my council tax account -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

 

A visit was made by abailiff to the above address from Bristow & Sutor re: unpaid council tax payments for 2011or good to the value of £536.00

 

May I first say that I have not received any letters, court order etc.informing me of the decision to send bailiffs to the above address?

 

On the afternoon of the 17th May I phoned the number on the letter explainingto the bailiff that payment was no problem and I wanted to get the mattercleared up, I offered him four payments of £141.75 to clear the debt, the firstof which I was willing to pay there and then.

 

I explained to him that Ihad had no letters, final demands etc. to the property, and nobody would bethere until at least the 26th of May due to me working away

 

The bailiff insisted thathe had to enter my property to make a list of items, I explained again thesituation to him and offered him the payment again along with bank details inorder to set up a standing order, again he expressed no interest in taking apayment just insisting on a return visit which would increase the debt to£636.00

 

After consulting my familysolicitor this morning they have advised me to have no more dealings withBristow & Sutor due to the unreasonable behaviour of theirappointed agent denying myself the right to pay my council tax,

 

 

 

I have been advised to make all future paymentsdirect to N.E.Derbyshire Council and to have no further dealings with yourappointed collection company Bristow & Sutor

 

 

 

The total amountoutstanding to N.E Derbyshire is £525.00, I am willing to make four payments of£135.75 in order to clear the debt (the first of which I can pay weekcommencing 21st May)

 

As you will see from your records I was sent a revised council tax bill which I assumed the arrears were added onto this,

 

This appears to have been a misunderstanding/miscalculation on my part and Ihope this matter is resolved as soon as possible,

 

 

 

Yours sincerely

Edited May 18, 2012 by alphacenturi71