Cap1 & CCA return

[wednesday1867]

Quick question, can someone point me to the part of the agreement, that says while an account is in dispute, the creditor can not enforce the agreement, ask for payment or issue a default.

 

 

Thanks

[Chalkitup]

Hi Paul.... I'm sure that this hapens in a lot of cases......we need to educate people.

 

I am in the process of having a go a over 5-7 creditors.....none of them seem to have a decent cca agreement. I am refusing to pay anything until I see a copy of the original, if they want to take it to court, that is their problem. they can explain to the judge why they didnt supply me with the original copy. The worst that can happen is the judge bollocks them and I get on a payment plan....the best is they dont have the agreement and the judge bollocks them and I walk away smiling. either way its a sort of win / win

 

you pays yer money and you takes yer chance

 

Dave

 

Well Put Dave:)

 

I am doing the same.

 

HAK

 

Me too:D

 

Me too!

 

Maybe we should start a club!?

 

 

Is this my mistake????

 

I have received no agreements from the creditors I have sent CCA requests. Other creditors are being very unhelpful with various requests.

However I am in a DMP with CCCS and have been paying it for over a year now !!!

Perhaps I should stop all payments and then perhaps I might get replies and results?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/107261-chalkitup-dcas-4.html

 

Onwards and Upwards.

 

Chalkitup

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi Chalkitup

 

Whats the worse they can do. Take you to Court with No agreement!!

 

HAK

[car2403]

Quick question, can someone point me to the part of the agreement, that says while an account is in dispute, the creditor can not enforce the agreement, ask for payment or issue a default.

 

 

Thanks

 

Depends on what you mean by dispute - can you elaborate?

 

If you've asked for a copy of the agreement and other info, which hasn't been provided;

s.77(4) - running account credit

s.78(6) - fixed term credit

 

Some other disputes come under the OFT Debt collection guidelines and the Banking Code.

[maybelline]

from experian website -

The account is in default. You failed to keep to your credit agreement and have not responded satisfactorily to requests to put your account in order, so the credit agreement has ended. -

 

this is status code 8, according to experian this is what this means, so why do creditors mark files as defaulted when they have missed afew payments, are continuing to pay and agreement is still live, several creditors argue they have a right to mark files as defaulted without the need for a default notice if you miss payments but this seems not to be the appropriate re above information from their website.

[car2403]

Maybelline - I think this is the difference between "default" and "Default". (Bear with me!)

 

Being in "default" means that you have breached your agreement.

 

Being in "Default" means they have followed the Default process outlined in the CCA s.87-s.90-odd.

 

Experian seems to suggest that being in default by 8 or more payments is the equivilent of being Defaulted - I don't know where they get this from, but it could be because the majority of their customers Default you before you get to the default status of 8, or they are simply explaining that a default status of 8 is equivilent of a Default being recorded against you on a credit score?

[wednesday1867]

Depends on what you mean by dispute - can you elaborate?

 

If you've asked for a copy of the agreement and other info, which hasn't been provided;

s.77(4) - running account credit

s.78(6) - fixed term credit

 

Some other disputes come under the OFT Debt collection guidelines and the Banking Code.

 

 

I sent Citi a cca back in June/July, they sent me a letter saying they didnt have to send a copy of the agreement etc.

 

They started to ring me again, so i sent them a letter stating that my account is in dispute, due to the lack of agreement. Now i have just received a default notice.

 

I know that when they dont supply the agreement, they cannot enforce the agreement or issue a default, im composing a letter back to them, but i cant find the info i want, i want to quote the section number etc.

 

I also want to complain to someone to, but dont really know who to complain to.

[patrickq1]

Depends when the agreement was signed, Patrick - there is the 2006 Act to consider, depending on the date signed.

thanks car

the legal mortgage was signed in 1990

dispute began in 1992.not heard from the bank since 1993

so still researching the statute barred and reading the contract as well as typing it into ms word so i can post it here to see if it is worth a fight

patrick

[maybelline]

Maybelline - I think this is the different between "default" and "Default". (Bear with me!)

 

Being in "default" means that you have breached your agreement.

 

Being in "Default" means they have followed the Default process outlined in the CCA s.87-s.90-odd.

 

Experian seems to suggest that being in default by 8 or more payments is the equivilent of being Defaulted - I don't know where they get this from, but it could be because the majority of their customers Default you before you get to the default status of 8, or they are simply explaining that a default status of 8 is equivilent of a Default being recorded against you on a credit score?

 

yes, I see what you mean but I do feel it is less than clear exactly what experian think a default is, when a default notice is processed it has to be set out in a certain way with notice of what action is necessary to prevent their action against you (is it this that then gets recorded even ifyou meet all themissing payments and then continue as normal and if so why?) isnt the default noitce meant to provide certain remedies on both sides as it is indeed a 'notice' of intention - why not just record a 3 or 4 if this amount of payments are missed, it seems they want their cake and eat it to me?

 

also - lets not forget experian state 'the credit agreement has ended' ?????

[boavista1952]

You'll find the templates here;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

 

The CCA s.77/s.78 request is letter N

 

A couple of questions about CCA requests....

 

Firstly, concerning the template referred to above .. (letter N); Are there different types of CCA? (credit card, personal loan, catalogue finance and bank accounts).

If so, will the above template meet the requirement for each of them?

 

Secondly, What action do I take if I get no response from the creditor after I make a CCA request?

 

I apologise if these questions are elementary, but I have only just taken my head out the sand!

 

boa ..

[car2403]

A couple of questions about CCA requests....

 

Firstly, concerning the template referred to above .. (letter N); Are there different types of CCA? (credit card, personal loan, catalogue finance and bank accounts).

If so, will the above template meet the requirement for each of them?

 

Secondly, What action do I take if I get no response from the creditor after I make a CCA request?

 

I apologise if these questions are elementary, but I have only just taken my head out the sand!

 

boa ..

 

Hey!

 

There are different types of agreements, but the template covers all personal credit agreements covered by the CCA.

 

You wouldn't take any action, as they would be in default of your request and couldn't enforce the agreement. (I suppose the action you'd take would be to stop making payments!)

 

You would really be better off starting your own thread - preferably one thread for each claim/case/creditor - then you can get specific help on each case, given each one has different merits and possibly different law/regulations that applies to it.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

I've said it before & I'll say it again that IMHO whilst a document meant to be CCA s77-79 compliant may be reconstructed it may NOT be conjectured as the information contained therein must be a true representation of the original.

 

Which beggars the question as to why would a creditor provide a reconstructed copy when it would be much easier, & cheaper, to provide a copy of the original?

 

Perhaps they have disposed of the original, silly billy's:D

 

 

I may seem unreal but consider

Maybe it's because as people keep forgetting they don't want you to see the original terms and conditions

 

remember the original terms and conditions (see section 78 are just as important as the front of any agreement and "law" applies to both sides of a piece of paper.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Eroding the data processor definition? Implications for everyone

of the Data Protection Authorities’ opinion on the SWIFT case

 

Swiss Privacy Commissioner claims SWIFT and Swiss banks infringed privacy law

 

[SteveH2508]

I sent Citi a cca back in June/July, they sent me a letter saying they didnt have to send a copy of the agreement etc.

 

They started to ring me again, so i sent them a letter stating that my account is in dispute, due to the lack of agreement. Now i have just received a default notice.

 

I know that when they dont supply the agreement, they cannot enforce the agreement or issue a default, im composing a letter back to them, but i cant find the info i want, i want to quote the section number etc.

 

I also want to complain to someone to, but dont really know who to complain to.

 

Same story here. Did you get a patronising, typo-filled letter from the (in)famous Mr Smith claiming the letter from them was a mistake? He did not even have the courtesy to respond to my reply!

I am composing letters to OFT, TS and FOS (not that they wil do any good). I am actually looking forward to Citi trying to take me to court so I can make them look VERY stupid!

 

S 78(6) says that the agreement is unenforceable whilst their defsult continues. Also, remember that S172 says that any statement they make in response to a S78 request is binding upon them. I've got them over at least two barrels!

[Peterbard]

Quick question, can someone point me to the part of the agreement, that says while an account is in dispute, the creditor can not enforce the agreement, ask for payment or issue a default.

 

 

Thanks

 

HI

The term "enforce" as refrred to within section 77 the CCA refers to the mechanism used to legally pursue the party responsible for a breach.

 

If a creditor has breached the act and the act says they can not enforce this does not mean they cannot ask for payment just that they cannot use the act to pursue it through the courts.

Also it is an offence to threaten court proceedings when they cannot enforce.

 

Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi Regarding the above if you are builcing a case this letter may be of use i have ohighlighted the relevant bits

 

Department of business enterprise and regulatory reform

Gareth Tomas MP

Parliamentary under secretary of State for the Trade and Consumer affairs

 

Dear James (My MP)

 

RE: consumer credit act 1974

Thank you for your letter of 26 June to Alistair Darling, enclosing correspundence from your constituent, Mr. Peter Bardsley of ************ ,about the consumer credit act 1974.

I am replying as this falls within my portfolio. I apologise for the delay in replying.

 

Mtr Bardsley is concerned that sections 77-79 of the act are being inadequately enforced. To recap, these sections are designed to assist debtors who need a copy of their credit agreement. The Act requires that the lender must comply with such request within the prescribed period of 12 working days. If a lender cannot comply with the request, they cannot enforce the agreement whilst this default continues.

 

My officials have spoken to their counterparts at the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) and in the local Authorities coordination of Regulatory reform Services (Lacors) to get their view on Mr Bardsley’s concern. Both bodies are aware of complaints that have been lodged in respect of these provisions and I am assured that both OFT and Lacors take individual complaints such as these complaints seriously.

However, this does not necessarily mean that enforcement action will automatically be taken. Any decision to prosecute would be have to be proportionate to any offence actually committed and be based on a number of factors, in particular the level of detriment suffered by the consumer. As a general rule it would not be considered a proportionate response to immediately prosecute for such a breach, but it may be appropriate for the enforcement office to provide advice to the creditor and to assess their processes and procedures.

 

I think a key point in the cases raised by Mr Bardsley is that if a lender is unable to satisfy their obligations in respect of a request made under sections 77 or 78 then, as mentioned above, the debt cannot be enforced through the courts until the default is remedied. It does not mean that the debt is automatically void or that the lender is unable to seek to recover legitimately owed debts. However, as with any debt recovery situation, lenders need to make sure they comply with OFT guidelines on debt collection. The guidance sets out what the OFT guidelines on debt collection. The guidance sets out what the OFT considers to be unfair practices in relation to debt collection and such practices include falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot.

Further details on the guidance can be found at WWW.oft .gov.uk/advice.

Should Mr Bardsley wish to make comment on non-compliance with the OFT’s guidance he can e-mail them at debtcollectionguidance@of t.gsi.gov.uk or telephone on 020 7211 5823

 

Yours sincerely

 

Gareth Thomas

[patrickq1]

good day to you peter i am watching live the lords/powers of entry bill being discussed at the moment,not very many people their so it may get through the house of lords ?

[patrickq1]

i have e mailed the above address debt collections guidance concerning HFO SERVICES see what they have to say peter but reading the letter you received its looking like a general fob off and as for mr darling,he would nt know what to do accept to see if its beneficial to himself,as you know the goverment and official bodies are not making it clear enough and are turning a blind eye to the abuse that a lot of us suffer

patrickq1

[patrickq1]

hi peter the document concerning my legal mortgage is on this thread if you could tell me if its valid and also they have not been in contact untill a few weeks ago since 1993 oct

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/123193-patrickq1-hfo-morgan-stanley.html

[shane5408]

hi patrickq1,

 

nice to see u back here, hope ur recovery's going ok, guess it back to the fight now then hey!

 

kind regards,

shane

[patrickq1]

yes shane i am about five weeks out of hospital and the twin bypass went well,though i am still as sore as hell,i did not realise just how big the op was,i honestly thought an hour an i'll be out an about,6 hours ,my heart stopped once and next i need a heart bypass which will be around about next april when i get fit enough so i still have to take it easy.....but i have started now and got most of the data i needed concerning the mortgage...they are out of time statute barred,so that wipes 14 thou plus intrest perday conpounded since 1993....great news for me so i can have a reasonable xmas

next ones HFO/MORGAN STANLEY/GOLDFISH

i sent the HFO a CCA round about the 27 nov so they are now in default and no contract since sar MORGAN STANLEY IN APRIL 06 so they have commited an offence..so after that all debts are clear eccept HFC who we had to borrow of some two months ago and used a third of the money to clear their debt,due to not being able to claim INCAPACITY BENIFIT ,the DWP doctors found me fit and put me down as being a malingerer ,they have not said so but i think that was the reason..so i claimed from the DWP under the FOI ACT some 4 months ago and they have failed to comply so i have sent my complaint to the ICO concerning them for breaching my FOI lol what a story,,,malingerer i could nt walk for over 11 months i have a specialist report and it has been going on this arterial disease for six years..so i am gonna try an claim from 2004 INCAPACITY BENEFIT if i can during all this time i missed paying nine stamps due to a real mix up with my accountant,still at least my home is now safe and that was my biggest worry,really good to see you back on line,im off to kipperino now get tired so easy so see ya tomoz mate

patrickq1

[MoonHawk]

Good god. I have so many pages to catch up on

 

Hi guys, I would appreciate some input regarding an application/agreement from GE Money on the thread Link Financial / GE Money (Evans).

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[PriorityOne]

Mtr Bardsley is concerned that sections 77-79 of the act are being inadequately enforced. To recap, these sections are designed to assist debtors who need a copy of their credit agreement. The Act requires that the lender must comply with such request within the prescribed period of 12 working days. If a lender cannot comply with the request, they cannot enforce the agreement whilst this default continues.

I think a key point in the cases raised by Mr Bardsley is that if a lender is unable to satisfy their obligations in respect of a request made under sections 77 or 78 then, as mentioned above, the debt cannot be enforced through the courts until the default is remedied. It does not mean that the debt is automatically void or that the lender is unable to seek to recover legitimately owed debts.

 

Just a tad contradictory, Mr. Thomas....

[un1boy]

the thing is - there is case law thanks to mrs wilson in that 5 lords have all agreed that if an agreement that does not have all/any prescribed terms is held then it has always been unenforcable, from the beginning of the agreement.

 

would this case law not supercede anything said by MP's?

[MoonHawk]

In my view there is no contradiction if you consider the definition of "enforce". They can not force you or pressure you into paying, nor can they use the courts to seek a remedy. They can keep sending you reminders that there is a debt, and they can keep asking you if you would like to pay anything. It is a matter of how they go about this and what wording they use that makes it an attempt to enforce or not.

 

The law does not say they are not able to contact you nor does it say they can not ask if you would like to pay. You can in return just say no and ask that they only deal with you in writing. You can then choose to ignore the letters or treat them as a pen pal.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk