iuc, please please help, I Hav an anxiety disorder, this letter has caused me distres

[leemack]

Yes, they can prosecute you, but your best defence is to win the the appeal - no overpayment = no fraud.

[Wizzer77]

Do u think they will based on the evidence?? Thought it had to be beyond reasonable doubt...this surely cant be beyond reasonable doubt... Im such a panicker :-/

[leemack]

They can put the case forward for prosecution based on the 'evidence' they have. Whether the case is prosecuted will be up to the prosecution team (are they the CPS?), and whether the evidence is good or bad would be argued in court. I don't really have any experience of the criminal side, only the civil side, ie the Tribunal. In a tribunal they decide on a balance of probabilities which is different to criminal court. Some authorities won't put the case forward for prosecution if an appeal is to be heard, others will press on regardless. Its a large overpayment, and normally I think this would be prosecuted, so if they offer you a lesser option - a caution or administrative penalty (a fine on top of the overpayment), then get professional legal advice before making a decision.

 

Its best to try not to think too far ahead. Just think one step at a time - first appeal and tribunal. Deal with anything else as it comes. Best not to panic and get ahead of yourself.

[Wizzer77]

Thanks for ur advice lee

Im just such a mess, i dont really think they have any evidence i really dont, its so unfair, im hoping the fact that i didnt financially gain from this has got to be in my favour :-/ my partner hasnt been asked anything... Which ithink is bit odd. But i would have him and i would also have a friend who would be my witnesses, to me living alone. Arrrggghhh Obviously people from the school believed at i lived with my partner, could hardly tell any1 i lied to the school :-/

[Joanne1975]

Hifirstly please dont worry yourself into an early grave like I almost did.You just stick to your gunsthe worst that can happen is they take you to court but going on what you have said wont happenif you are as you say better off now they tend to write them off against each other - this happened to my friendif they do take you to court you have nothing to loose cos all they will do is ask you to pay back the moneyand thats nothing worst than the situation your in, they are not going to put you in prison - i know someone who is paying back £10,000 at £5 a week I remember the guy in CAB saying "they cant get water from a dry lake" and its true if you avent got it they cant take itI am now nearly 6 months down the line from where you are and my life is back to normal mostlystick to your guns and tell the truth - they have to prove otherwiseJ

[itsbeenpaid]

Hi Wizzer, for the sort of money they are talking about, they will be looking to prosecute, do you have a solicitor? You need one now!, Get the solicitor to ask them what they are going to do, most councils will continue with a prosecution even if you are waiting on an appeal/tribunal.

 

I know this is not what you want to hear but you need to know the truth now more than ever. I really know how you are feeling at the moment.

 

I will keep an eye on your thread and help if I can.

Take care

XX

[Joanne1975]

Im sorry to disagreebut i was in same boat and i owed them around the same amount they cut it down for this n that and never charged me a penalty and are taking weekly payments that i can afordI would apeal it all the way and as i said in PM they can only take what you have to give

[ErikaPNP]

Im sorry to disagreebut i was in same boat and i owed them around the same amount they cut it down for this n that and never charged me a penalty and are taking weekly payments that i can aford

 

Joanne, I'm glad that you managed to get your own case sorted out. However please bear in mind that your case was in relation to tax credits. This is an entirely different thing to housing benefit and is administered by another governmental body and they have differing policies and laws when it comes to fraud cases.

 

HMRC who administer tax credits rarely prosecute but Local Authorities who administer housing benefit and DWP who also administer other benefits, do prosecute more often and for far less amounts. For local authorities and DWP every fraud where the resulting overpayment is in excess of £2000 is referred for consideration of prosecution. That's not to say that every case over this amount will be prosecuted but they wil be referred. Once a referral is received, departmental solicitors have to apply both of the tests (the evidential test and the public interest test) to the cases to determine if prosecution should proceed.

 

In any event, you cannot compare your own case to that of someone else's. Each case considered is weighted on a variety of factors inluding the type of fraud committed and prior offences - in addition to the sum involved. Having dealt with literally thousands of welfare cases over the years, I have seen many frauds and alleged frauds which have been for approximately the same sum but which have had very different outcomes.

 

as i said in PM they can only take what you have to give

 

They can take more than you have to give if you are in receipt of benefit. They can take up to the maximum deduction for fraudulent overpayments directly from benefit to recover the overpayment, and though they can consider lowering the amount of deductions if a person is in hardship, if they choose not to lower them there is not a great deal that can be done about that.

 

Please do not advise people via private message.

[Joanne1975]

I can see what your saying, I was just saying i have a little more insight into this than i'd care to put on these forumsand from my experiences they dont prosecute but as you said ever case is individual dependant on what other evidence they have etc. the likelyhood is they will have been watching you and if you have been staying there they will know about it - so if your telling the truth then you shouldnt worry just stick to your guns.if as you said you will be better off when you claim together I dont see how they can claim it back - you could go down the notional offset route and then they will owe you money which you wont see btwRegardsJ

[Wizzer77]

They only told me about this after i had moved in with my partner so, if they wouldnt have started watching me after the iuc as i obviously was here. I have also got a letter from a friend of mine (who is a proffesional guy so i hope the letters after his name help a bit lol) who has not only written a statement to say that i was at my property and that he helped me out when i ran out of electric etc but would also be willing to stand up at tribunal/court to say as much also. I have also got a letter from my letting agent which staes that they had reason to believe i lived there and have provided logs to them of calls i had made, in regards to property and let them know if i was ever away... Do you think these things will help. Spoke to some1 the other day n she mentioned nothing about prosecuting, just that if they couldnt make a decsion about overpayment then it would be sent for tribunal. Which i hope it does! I really do cos i know i havent done anying wrong. I havent got a solicitor or anything yet. Was going to see if i even needed one.... Arrrghhhhh still out of my mind over this. As far as im aware the evidence they have is 1) i changed schools in 2009 n put my boyfriends address down as home address 2) not enough electricity units used, half of which the times they took the electricity reading i wasnt there anyway as i had informed them i broke my leg! 3) a neighbour told someone when they called round that i didnt live there anymore.... Which i domt know why they did this and im sure they wouldnt stand at tribunal or sign a statement to that effect as its a rough council estate n they wouldnt ' grass' as they call it on someone! If it was the case, which it isnt. I dont know what else i can do. Im not paying that money back...i bloody lived in a crap life to do things properly and protect myself, went bankrupt, turned my life around just to be in more debt than i was?!?! No way, im innocent, and im sooooo angry that this has happened cos i couldve been living a happier family life with my prtner in a nice house for past 2 years, been better off....but stupid me wanted to do things properly and make sure i could never get in same position again...and its all for nothing if i pay this money back

[advice.please]

Hi ya I dont really have any experience in anything like this but it does sound very serious I am guessing you could get legal aid so I would get solicitor asap.

 

However if I was in your situation i would start collating as much proof that i lived at address as I could I was thinking have you ever had anything delivered through post that you had to sign for that would be proof you where living there although not sure how long post office holds info for, also did you have a landline surley calls in and out would def proof how often you where there.

 

Did you have visits from midwifes or health visitors to your address ? Basically visits from anyone who could confirm they saw you in your own home. If you have bad debts where the bailiffs calling did you ever open door to them if so I am sure that would be logged somewhere.

 

I know you say some neighbours reported you where their others that noticed you coming and going that would be willing to confirm. Litrally if i was you and i had been living at that address then I would know there must be proof I would go knocking on doors just explaining situation making sure your clear not to try and pressure people but just saying if you have seen me regularly would you be willing to sign something to say this.

 

I would explain the school thing honestly and I would also contact the school and make them aware of whats happening and apologise for misleading them about where you lived explain what lead you to do it and I am sure they will understand you wanted what was best for your children.

 

I hope your successful in proving your case and wish you lots of luck with it.

[Wizzer77]

Don't have any post really :-/ I also don't want anything to do with any neighbours, wouldn't know where to start. I had no landline the only time I had home visits from healthcare people was after I had my twins, during which time I was staying with partner cos of c-section. Arrrgggghhhh it's so annoying! I was hardly ever there but I did sleep there!

[advice.please]

I would consider sending out letter maybe get legal aid and get it checked by solicitor as send it to neighbours I know its tough and embarassing but 30k is a huge amaout of money and it may be worth it i am guessing if you have your children even if you where out all day you must have had to come home early eve to get them settled for bed and also doing the school run in morn I am betting people noticed you leaving to take kids to school as lots of people are up and about at that time. I would be very very very careful what you do write if you contact neighbours but as long as its not trying to influence people I am betting at least some will help. I would if something came through my door and someone was going to get into trouble and I had seen them. I dont know how things like that stand in court but I would try and do everything I could.

[Wizzer77]

Its not even that im embarrassed, but neighbour told some1 from council i didnt live there and only came back for my mail, i dont know who is this. This is a VERY rough council estate, it truly is full of scumbags, police were always at neighbours houses, they are not nice people and i want no involvement, and i know they wouldnt help me, they honestly wouldnt i wish it were at easy i would help someone too but i know they wouldnt. They didnt like me, called me a snob (cos i was normal and wasnt interested in getting involved in there fights and dramas. They dont hate me or anything but i know they wouldnt help me

Its 19k to housing, 6k to dwp, ic, and rest in council tax, about 28k all in all! I had a solicitor for my iuc and she walked out of there saying they had nothing and she was confident it wouldnt go any further!!! So hmmmmmm :-/

[Wizzer77]

I would have my dad who came to stay at mine as a witness, also in the logs from my letting agent in regards to calls i had made to them during my period there, i would inform them that my dad was staying, so that letter from letting agency would confirm my dad as staying there. I havent put a statement in my appeal from him as i dont want to worry about it as he is having treatment for cancer of oesophagus at the mo, and dont wanna involve him unless it becomes at tribunal stage. Also they have never asked my partner anything? Is this normal? He has never been called for interview, and again i havent got a statement from him in appeal as i wanted to make sure that i had plenty of evidence left for a tribunal, dont wanna use it all up on appeal. He has never claimed benefits so he hasnt been accused of defrauding anyone, but as it was me claiming and myself who signed declaration saying i was living alone, im assuming it isnt anything to do with him....i dunno, They havent said anything to him!

I feel soooo drained!

[Wizzer77]

Any help would be greatly appreciated, here goes....

I am being accused of living with my partner from feb 2009 -april 2011. Which i didnt, i moved in april 2011. But heres the story...

 

In october 2008 i moved into my old address, i then met my now partner and i fell pregnant with our twins (i had 3 older 1's) he lived in a town about 3 miles away from me. I had our twins in august 2009. But i moved my daughter from the school in our town to 1 in his town in feb 2009. I did this because 1- the school is alot better, andhas ofsted report to prove this. 2- because my daughter was unhappy at school, which i have a visit documented from welfare officer attending the school in december 2008 to support my claim my daughter wasnt happy. But stupidly because i knew she wouldnt get into the school without living in area, i put my bf's address down as home address :-/

 

Also my electric records show very low use of electric. Which they say is proveable that i didnt live there.

 

My response- as i stated in my iuc, i was looking togo bankrupt (which i did feb 2011) and i was in a very bad financial situation. My partner wouldnt let me live with him until i had gone bankrupt as he didnt want me to go bankrupt at his address. So i had very little money and admitted that there was periods that i didnt have electric, and during those times my partner, and a very good friend who lives in same town as i did let me use there washing, drying and bathing facilities. My friend has written a statement to this effect also.

Also, i am originally from a completely different county, and would spend periods of time with my best friend, whilst my eldest 3 were with there dad. My friend whom i stayed with, my ex (who had our 3) and my dad who i sometimes stayed with, are all willingto write statements for this for my tribunal.

 

Also i broke my ankle in july 2010, and had to stay with my partner during this time as i was non weight bearing. I informed housing, dwp etc of this andwas told it was fine. I stayed from august-december 2010.

 

So surely all this evidence supports my reasons for not having electric. Also have in my friend from a different county's statement, which supports my statement of being brought up in a home which was very run down, and had bad childhood in regards to livingin conditions that may not appear normal to some. Am also trying to trace any records from social services to try and support this claim. As i know we had involvment withthem but unsure how much.

 

Also in regards to my broken ankle....why would i phone from hospital bed (which is documented) to say i wasnt going to be there as i had injured myself...if according to them i hadnt been there for over a year anyway !?!?

 

I have medical records from 2008 and these refer to me suffering from an anxiety disorder. Also has mention of home visits from health visitor. Also a dr had written during a consoltation that i dont live with partner butsee him most days. All appointments made in the practice in my old town where i lived, and not my partners town.

 

A neighbour told a worker that i didnt live there. But wouldnt make a statement as the area is a very rough area. Which it is! Which is why i never spent much time at home!! But obviously they have brought this for their evidence! I dont really know the neighbours, and is an awful area

 

I also have call logs from my regular contact with letting agent, which state that i told them i go away to visit family often. Also that my dad had come to visit at my property and has done some gardening and heavy work in the house. My dad is willing to write me a statement to say that he did stay with me, but he does have terninal cancer of the oesophagus so wouldnt be able to attend as a witness in person.

 

Lastly, they say that i did live with him from 2009 as i couldnt go bankrupt at his address, which is the reason i commited the fraud. But this doesnt really make sense, as if i had done this, then why would i, because surely the only reason to commit benefit fraud is to have financial gain. Well.... As a single person, my rent was paid directly to landlord, so i had no gain from this money except to have occupancy of the property, and received £280 p/w as a single mother. Now, as i couple, we are entitled to £330 p/w!

 

so why would i live at an address for over 2 years...commit a serious offence (im of good character, no convictions, as are all my witnesses) when i couldve saved the £450 needed for bankruptcy, in only 9 weeks of living with partner. We wouldve been over £5000 better off in our pockets over this period had we claimed as a couple. Unless i kept the house because i wanted to live there! I have provided evidence that my relationship with my ex was violent, followed by a period of homelesness, so surely it is understandable why i wasnt quick to hive up my home and move in!

 

Anyway, if any1 has any advice/opinions.... Anything would help, as i do suffer from anxiety, and this has caused me so much distress thank u

Edited September 20, 2011 by Wizzer77

[Wizzer77]

Forgot to say the amount over paid is close to 20k!!!!!!

 

Also noticed in my last paragraph i spoke about in the 9 weeks of living with my partner we wouldve been able to raise the £450 needed for bankruptcy from the extra £50 a week better off we was

Edited September 20, 2011 by Wizzer77

[Nystagmite]

It's not just about living together - given that you gave birth to your partner's child, proves that you're in a relationship.

[Wizzer77]

We aren't disputing we're in a relationship. But we wasn't living together. If you're single parent u don't have to live together with every1 u go out with surely?!? Obviously it worked out we did move in together. But I hadn't in notice on property etc before my iuc.

[flumps1976]

Also when looking at the decision they aren't just looking at you actual whereabouts, they are looking at whether you were a couple wjho were geographically rather than maritaslly separated.

In all other aspects you were a couple and you have stated as such however due to financial reasons you couldn't live together until you had completed your bankruptcy.

In the balance of probability you could be classed as being a couple for the duration of the allegation even if you weren't living together but were spending a regular amount of time together.

[Wizzer77]

Yes he was/is my boyfriend, but ur allowed to have a relationship... I only met him in November 2008!! I'm being accused of living with him from feb '09! I fell preg with twins the 1st time we slept together. It all happened so quick, my hormones and emotions were all over the place, then I broke my ankle, then we moved in... Like I sed in original post, my past has been horrific and I had o ly just settled in the house with my kids... This is nightmare

 

It wasn't only due to financial reasons. It was also due to me being homeless before and in a violent relationship, so obviously was very apprehensive to move in with any1. The bankruptcy was just his reason that he didn't want us to live together, I had my own reasons as stated. We shared no finances, had our own mail going to our own houses, my friend who lives in same town helped me out more with practical things! And I'm not being accused of living with him! Of course I spent some time with him. But surely that's not classed as living together?!?!

[flumps1976]

Everyone is entitled to have relationship and also to have a sex life.

The title of living together does tend to lead people to believe that it is literally about living under the same roof together but there are other things that are taken into consideration, the length of time that you have been in a relationship, whether there are any children as a result of the realtionship, how friends and family members perceive you to be as a couple and if you don't actually live together are there any reasons preventing this such as finances.

[Wizzer77]

Yes I understand what ur saying. Friends perceived us ass living apart and 2 of those friends are writing statements to that effect.

From the time theyre claiming we lived together from, we'd only been together 3 months!

The bankruptcy thing made him reluctant to have me move in, and for myself it was various reasons previously stated, as my life has been incredibly unstable (which I can provide evidence for) and moving in together was a big step for me :-/

[id6052]

one of the potential difficulties you may have is the fact that you have made previous statements in feb 2009 saying that you were living at your partner's address, that can go against you in two ways.

 

it either means that you were living with your partner and had a false claim for benefit, or that you were not living with your partner but were willing to lie to change your child's school. that can cause difficulty as a judge may view it as if you are willing to lie about one thing, how can they believe any evidence you provide

 

also you mentioned that you have low utility usage, am not sure how low, but from experience a family with several children normally has higher than average utility bills

[Wizzer77]

Yes i put it on school form that i lived at hisaddress, but did that as they wouldnt get into that school otherwise. I would accept any relevent punishment for that, assuming its an offence. Alot of parents do this to get into school, doesnt make it right, but does make it alot more understandable. Ihave supportive evdience for everything i say, about education welfare visit, i have the report which only took place month before i changed schools. Have medical records to prove my anxiety. And even have a statement from my violent ex partner, admitting he was violent and as a result i was made homeless, and from his knowledge i lived at the address i claimed for.

 

Yes my electric was incredibly low, but i was hardly ever there during day, i never had any money, hence going bankrupt. And have statement from friend that he would make us meals etc and help me with laundry. If anything, i was at his house more than my partners, as my partner worked alot. Plus i visited iow frequently, which i can prove. Also had periods of time when i was staying with partner, for 6 weeks after csection with our twins, and for 4 months when i broke my leg. So kind of makes sense that elec usage was low. Which was only utility used as evidence.