Asset Recoveries UK hassling re mortgage shortfall from 2000- ** Statute barred ** :)

[spamheed]

I live and learn, I wasn't aware of this arrangement until now, thanks a lot Ida, I stand corrected. This is potentially a killer point and should be stickied

 

The one word that shines out though is "Voluntarily"

 

I am assuming the CML wouldn't be too pleased if one of their number was to break rank and fly in the face of their published position on SB accounts.

 

I think in the best interests of the OP this should be killed asap and pointing out that their own in house rules forbid them from following these actions is a definate must.

 

Proving the lack of contact I think would be unnecessary at the moment and would prolong the issue if they are actually going to follow their own associations rules. if they decide to pursue this then maybe an option for another day?

Edited February 3, 2010 by spamheed

[irate-wife]

sorry spamheed, didnt understand a word of that.

[IdaInFife]

ok they are stating the DOA is after the 6 years so should be ok

 

i would send them:

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Dear Sir/Madam

Account No:_____________________________

You have contacted me/us regarding the amount you claim is owed as a shortfall on the mortgage

following the sale of my/our property.

I/we understand that The Mortgage Trust are members of the Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML). As you will be aware,

the CML has the following policy on obtaining repayment of mortgage shortfall debts. This applies to all

CML members.

“Lenders are committed to fair and sympathetic treatment of people who have suffered repossession,

and accept that individuals should not face long delays before lenders contact them to discuss repayment

of the shortfall”.

“From 11 February 2000, lenders who are members of the CML have agreed voluntarily that they will

begin all recovery action for the shortfall within the first six years following the sale of a property in

repossession. Anyone whose property was taken into possession and sold more than six years ago, and

who has not been contacted by their lender about recovering any outstanding debt will not now be

asked to pay the shortfall”.

I/we would point out that the property in question was sold on (insert the date). Also the first

contact I/we had from yourselves was by phone/in writing on (insert the date).

I/we therefore suggest that under the CML policy my/our property was sold more than six years ago

and I/we have not been contacted by yourselves within that time. Therefore I/we should not be asked

to pay any shortfall debt outstanding.

I/we would point out that from 31 October 2004the Financial Services Authority (FSA) have issued

‘The Mortgage: Conduct of Business Rules’ which say that if a lender decides to recover a

mortgage shortfall debt they must make sure the borrower is informed of this within six years of the

date of sale.

I/we look forward to your confirmation, in writing, that any outstanding shortfall debt will not be

pursued against me/us any further.

Yours faithfully

(Your signature)

[spamheed]

Sorry Irate, just to let you know Ida was in possession of a snippet of information that I wasn't, hence the disagreement between the 12yrs/ 6yrs rule.

 

As Ida points out, members of the CML have agreed on a Statute barring period of 6 years rather than the statute based 12 years.

 

Since your debt has gone over this six year deadline, it would appear to change the direction of this a little, send the template letter Ida has produced and we'll see where we go from there

[IdaInFife]

the CML brought this in in 2000 then the FSA took over this in 2004

[spamheed]

the CML brought this in in 2000 then the FSA took over this in 2004

 

Very good call Ida changes the entire tack of this thread

 

Either they concede the point and write off the debt, or continue to pursue and are shown up in court as the arses they are for failing to honour even their own in house agreements.

 

Irate, make sure you keep copies of everything, obtain proof of posting and delivery, send everything recorded (registered is better). file everything carefully

 

Just in case they don't play ball all of the correspondence from this point on will be very important

[irate-wife]

Thank you very much to you all for your kind help and support. I feel so much better now knowing that I have lots of help and support from you, I will keep you informed of the outcome. Oh and spamheed, you never know, i might find out one day where you live and maybe treat you to a skinfull. thanks again.

[spamheed]

I'm in Ash'ton m'dear and you're entirely welcome.

 

Send the letter and ensure you let us know anything that follows

[IdaInFife]

lets see what they come back with - if anything at all

 

ida x

[sillygirl1]

Irate-Wife, the letter IdainFife has written should confuse them and hopefully they will go off hunting easier prey.

 

Don't answer any security questions on the phone to anyone should they ring and if anyone turns up you can send them packing. It is possible you might get another letter stating "letters to this address have been returned as 'gone away' please confirm or we will blacklist you...." these are best ignored.

 

Hopefully now you have advice from us they will start panicing and not you.

[irate-wife]

well well spamheed, i am in bed'ton, not too far then, I work in ash'ton. I will keep you informed. Thanks again

[pedross]

Well there you go irate-wife

 

Plenty of good advice to give you confidence. Just stay calm and do not acknowledge the debt, do not talk to them on the phone and follow the advice you receive on here and you should be fine.

 

Interestingly enough, since you first took out the mortgage with Mortgage Trust Limited they have been bought out by First National Building Society who demutualised and changed the name to First Active Financial plc. In 2000 Brittanic Group bought a major stake in the company and renamed it Brittanic Money before then taking over the whole company only to sell it to Paragon Group of Companies who in 2003 changed the name back to Mortgage Trust Limited.

 

Confused, I bet you are, but not as confused as they will be if you start asking them to prove you actually owe them the money. The name might sound the same as when you first had the mortgage but the truth is far different.

 

Just follow the advice you have been receiving and wait for their next move and guess what. You will get more good advice from CAG. As the famous and well respected CitizenB said, you can get your advice from anywhere you choose, but maybe not as good and as quick as from here hey?

 

Pedross

[citizenB]

 

Pedross, I will start to get a big head :D

 

Iratewife, it looks as though you have received a lot of good advice and hopefully things dont look as bleak now.

[irate-wife]

well here is the response to the letter i posted on thursday. I copied your letter off the site and this is my reply

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2010 by irate-wife

[gh2008]

Oh dear at least you have a real person writing real letters rather than a monkey operating the MKII Threat-O-Matic machine in the corner.

Well the bunch of monkeys may still apply

 

BTW there are *serious* issues with Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited s.a.r.l. as well have a search for threads.

It is a Luxembourg based (no UK offices) 'securitization vehicle'

 

They are registered with the ICO so you can SAR them - however the company only exists on paper so it would be interesting to see what you receive back - of course followed by a complaint to the ICO for non-compliance.

They also hold a uk credit licence so complaints to FSA & TS as well.

 

ARUK is just another DCA who happen to specialise in collecting 6+yr old mortgage shortfall debts

[spamheed]

Good Morning Irate, let's take this nice and slowly. they haven't won anything yet and neither have you lost anything.

 

This was never going to be a clear cut argument and with the amount of money that they are claiming, they aren't simply going to just walk away.

 

You will have to see them off (with a little help) so lets not be too down hearted just yet

 

It's a nice day, the snow is pretty much gone and this is just another letter saying the same as the last one. "you owe us £xxx so pay us" If they really had everything that they say they have and were so cock sure of themselves then they wouldn't be trying to negotiate, they would have bulldozed you into court.

 

Firstly remove the balance from your letter and anything else that can be used to identify you, you need to give away as little as possible

 

So what they are saying in their letter is that they are relying on the 12 year statute instead of the CML voluntary 6 year statute. They have also stated that the 12 year statute becomes active in June 2011

 

They are also stating that because TMT contacted you, exchanged correspondence and then sold on the debt within the initial six year period then the CML voluntary statute didn't apply to TMT (The original creditor).

 

They are also stating that the same voluntary statute doesn't apply to any subsequent owner of the debt as they have also contacted you within the following six year period. (which has yet to expire)

 

I believe this is where we came in.

 

My Advice stands as per post #24, they need to prove the status of the debt, a letter stating that they now own it is insufficient, you need to see a complete paper trail, showing assignments and transfer documents at each stage, if even one document is missing then they own nothing and can enforce nothing.

 

As Ida suggested, I would initially be sending them a Subject Access Request and seeing exactly what they have got.

 

Look at this objectively, if they decide to take you to court, then they will have to provide you with all of the paperwork in anyway and also convince a judge that after over ten years, they have a lawful right to collect this money.

 

Even if the judge decides to agree with them (and this is far from guaranteed and they know it) then you would likely be ordered to repay an amount which you can comfortably afford, and if this was £1 per month then that's what it is (they know this as well, this is why they are trying to scare you and are not rushing you into court)

[Philip23]

Very condescending letter in my view. Like the veiled threat "copy to Legal Department".

 

Vultures is what they are. Keeping fighting

[irate-wife]

good morning spamheed and friends, I will send ANOTHER subject access request to them. i already done this and my reply was the second letter. They state on this letter that they had sent the documents i requested but all the sent with it was an income and expenditure form. I will see what they send next time.

[gh2008]

They are also stating that because TMT contacted you, exchanged correspondence and then sold on the debt within the initial six year period then the CML voluntary statute didn't apply to TMT (The original creditor).

 

Except it was sold outside of the 6 yr period i.e. TMT 'gave up' and sold on the unenforceable debt to Phoenix. Except there's a little issue about the 'sale'

 

My Advice stands as per post #24, they need to prove the status of the debt, a letter stating that they now own it is insufficient, you need to see a complete paper trail, showing assignments and transfer documents at each stage, if even one document is missing then they own nothing and can enforce nothing.

 

As Ida suggested, I would initially be sending them a Subject Access Request and seeing exactly what they have got.

 

If you can spare the cash, I would SAR both Phoenix & TMT, if you read the other Phoenix threads you will know why.

 

ARUK are just a DCA they do not own the debt they are just chasing for it. ARUK cannot take action themselves, Phoenix have to - except of course that's where the problem lies ......

 

These people specialize in buying unenforceable debts at 5p/£ or so and then use the piece of paper that says they are owed £17k as security to borrow 'real' money.

[gh2008]

I will send ANOTHER subject access request to them.

 

Who have you sent a SAR to ?

Phoenix at their Luxembourg address?

Phoenix do not have any UK offices the various addresses they use are just DCAs and lowlife solicitors.

 

Here's the info

Data Protection Register - Entry Details

 

Registration Number: Z9853611

Date Registered: 12 April 2007 Registration Expires: 11 April 2010

 

Data Controller: PHOENIX RECOVERIES (UK) LIMITED S.A.R.L.

 

Address:

11-13 BOULEVARD DE LA FOIRE

L-1528 LUXEMBOURG

Representative Name:

 

MR G KLAEDTKE

 

Representative Address:

 

PHOENIX RECOVERIES (UK) LTD

11-13 BOULEVARD DE LA FOIRE

L-1528

LUXEMBOURG

This register entry describes, in very general terms, the personal data being processed by:

PHOENIX RECOVERIES (UK) LIMITED S.A.R.L.

This register entry contains personal data held for 3 purpose(s)

Purpose 1

Staff Administration

Purpose Description:

Appointments or removals, pay, discipline, superannuation, work management or other personnel matters in relation to the staff of the data controller.

Data subjects are:

Staff including volunteers, agents, temporary and casual workers

Relatives, guardians and associates of the data subject

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Family, Lifestyle and Social Circumstances

Education and Training Details

Employment Details

Financial Details

Racial or Ethnic Origin

Religious or Other Beliefs Of A Similar Nature

Physical or Mental Health or Condition

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

Data subjects themselves

Relatives, guardians or other persons associated with the data subject

Current, past or prospective employers of the data subject

Education, training establishments and examining bodies

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Financial organisations and advisers

Central Government

Employment and recruitment agencies

Transfers:

Worldwide

Purpose 2

Debt Administration and Factoring

Purpose Description:

The tracing of consumer and commercial debtors and the collection on behalf of creditors. The purchasing of trade debts, including rentals and instalment credit payments, from business.

Data subjects are:

Customers and clients

Complainants, correspondents and enquirers

Relatives, guardians and associates of the data subject

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Financial Details

Goods or Services Provided

Physical or Mental Health or Condition

Offences (Including Alleged Offences)

Criminal Proceedings, Outcomes And Sentences.

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

Data subjects themselves

Relatives, guardians or other persons associated with the data subject

Current, past or prospective employers of the data subject

Business associates and other professional advisers

Other companies in the same group as the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Persons making an enquiry or complaint

Financial organisations and advisers

Credit reference agencies

Debt collection and tracing agencies

Traders in personal data

Central Government

Courts / Tribunals

Transfers:

Worldwide

Purpose 3

Accounts & Records

Purpose Description:

Keeping accounts related to any business or other activity carried on by the data controller, or deciding whether to accept any person as a customer or supplier, or keeping records of purchases, sales or other transactions for the purpose of ensuring that the requisite payments and deliveries are made or services provided by him or to him in respect of those transactions, or for the purpose of making financial or management forecasts to assist him in the conduct of any such business or activity

Data subjects are:

Customers and clients

Suppliers

Complainants, correspondents and enquirers

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Financial Details

Goods or Services Provided

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

Business associates and other professional advisers

Employees and agents of the data controller

Other companies in the same group as the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Financial organisations and advisers

Credit reference agencies

Debt collection and tracing agencies

Central Government

Transfers:

None outside the European Economic Area

Copyright in this copy is owned by the Information Commissioner. Data Controllers may take copies of their own register entries. Apart from that no part of it may be copied unless allowed under the Copyright Designs and Patent Act 1988.

 

Sorry for the big post

[PriorityOne]

I've only read through this thread quickly, so please forgive me for missing anything...

 

Firstly, these people have no "clients". This word is just bandied about because it makes them sound like they have all kinds of legal connections, can throw you in jail, chop your fingers off and so on. Most DCAs throw this word around and it's normally the first thing I squash when writing back to them.... because in most cases (like here) they've bought the debt and the original creditor is no longer in the picture as a "client" or anything else...

 

Although it's an old thread, I was involved in an issue (by Count) some time ago and the template letters on there may be useful to you. I'll try and find it to post a link on here for you.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be writing "Without Prejudice" on anything.... and have never done so.

 

Edited February 6, 2010 by PriorityOne

[PriorityOne]

County Court Summons - Mortgage Shortfall - Advice Needed Urgently, Please Help !!!

 

Link is not working.... not sure why!! Grrrrr!!!!

[irate-wife]

oh boy, now i am getting more confused.

[PriorityOne]

oh boy, now i am getting more confused.

 

 

Ok.... list your confusions one by one.... and we'll try to help. It is a minefield, I agree..

 

[ODC]

oh boy, now i am getting more confused.

That is why these clowns send out such letters. They try to scare you with bug legal words most of which they do not understand themselves.

 

Stick with the good folk on here and you can defeat them