This is an effort sent to my relative in June by Cabot for and MBNA credit agreement which also included some grossly inaccurate statements (due to them adding interest)

The name/ bank account details, employment details were on the form as was their signature at the bottom right. However, they did not date the form, it was stamped and then verified presumably by whomever but no date was entered by Relative. It was 1997

Although the form under the Priority Request Form states

Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I do not believe that is is one (indeed they (relative) had several accounts with MBNA,this could be for any of them.

To the left of the form it simply says 'to accept our invitation simply complete the priority request form' which to me says it's a 'form' not a credit agreement ...

How you see it in this link is how it was sent to my relative, it's not an a4 copy, it appears as as an a5 if not smaller in the bundle of paperwork they Cabot sent.

It can be found here

http://www.partnerpick.com/userspace/userck3719/cabno1.jpg

since carey and rankines, i would not rely on a paperwork error to null a debt

esp where the oc can produce evidence of a clear financial link

dx

There were several MBNA accounts held, how would anyone know which one corresponds to which account if no date of a signature is showing ?

After reading a summary of the Carey case I'm not so sure it even applies here. As the document states in bold on the left, it is a request from, not an agreement.

Does not an agreement have to have the signature of both the person taking out the agreement and the bank issuing the card? There is no provision within that document that allows for the bank to sign?

Is there anyone that has one to hand or is viewable?

What I'm trying to get to is that a DCA has been charging interest each and every month on an account that they were supposedley assigned by MBNA in 2004, payments have been made to the DCA but the debt has increased to over double the original debt ..5k ish to nearly 11.5k

I do not think there was/is any provision in the original credit agreement to levy such interest.

Also, is there an address where a SAR's can be requested from MBNA, we tried one address but it was sent back return to sender.

well i suppose then its time to ignore them

if they are so confident the debt does exist and they have paperwork without taking into account the many agreements etc etc

time to let a judge decide?

let them take it to court?

how much are they claiming?

dx

Hi Deb

I think the easiest way to track down such documents if they exist is, Google

'MBNA Credit Card Agreement - 1997'

Then click 'Image'.

That should throw up quite a few doc's.

My SAR went to:-

MBNA Europe Bank Limited

PO Box 1004

Chester Business Park

Wrexham Road

Chester

CH4 9WW

Got a response.

S.

"supposedley assigned by MBNA in 2004"

If you werent notified of the transfer by NoA then they have no right to charge interest on the account at all, if MBNA didnt send you statements either then the amount should be as at the default level, this is in CCA2006.

S.

Original debt a little over 5k when it went to Cabot, they've been paid £25 a month for 5 years and then nothing for the last year due to incorrect information from them.

They allege the debt is now just shy of £11,500

Deb.... why are you starting another thread on this? It serves no purpose and will only confuse the issue for you.

Two threads merged.

please keep to the same thread otherwise it makes things confusing & people won't know the history or any advice already given.

Hi Shadow/Rebel, thanks so far.

In the case of the cabot produced 'request' form (previous post)....all well and good but we have a letter some 24 months from MBNA pre Cabot days on from the alleged agreement/request form date

which offers to upgrade the card and change the terms/conditions/interest rates.found below

http://www.partnerpick.com/userspace/userck3719/cabno2.JPG

........so would this nullify any previous agreement? which if cabot are relying on would

halt their argument as in they have not produced anything close to an agreement or correct paperwork etc and as such any reconstituted agreement is suspect.

Note: I have removed the address details and interest rates applied within it just so Cabot's beady eyes cannot scoop the letter

Thankyou both, it's been a while since posting for myself, in my haste I did not follow the usual protocol....sorry!

Priority, you said here in Orange

the reason why the payments were stopped were to force cabots hand, whilst our relative is in no fit state to attend court we thought it best to force cabot to take the action and where I think with the documentation we have and the documentation they dont along with other varying bit's of legislation should show Cabot up to be altogether irresponsible when attempting to collect the debt. they've lied, issued documents that dont exist and added interest where they shouldnt and increased the alleged indebtness simply becuase they wanted to. A simple CCA request could have dealt with all of this but it depends what you want out of it. If you believe that you have paid more than the original debt, then a SAR would give you the opportunity to calculate the extent of it but you'd probably need to issue a claim yourself to get it back, which could be costly. If not, then a CCA request should have gone off.

The SAR was requested due to inconsistent entries on the credit file and Cabot asking for more money. A cca wasn't sent at the time. the statements they've sent just recently with the so called agreement which is actually a request form has some of the statements held in the SARS (no statements pre cabot were sent)...

However, I've gone a picked up the file from my aunts today and in going through the correspondence from them in 2009/10 Cabot have stated that they have not been able to comply with the request under the CCA 1974 and that until they have the relvant documentation the account is on hold.....standard procedure is this not? However, the statements with the alleged CCA (request form is what it was) the interest continued to be added to the account... It is my contention that they do not have the right to add the interest anyway but here they are even though they've conceded that the account is on hold (up until they sent the alleged agreement) and they've all the time been adding interest.

Also and perhaps more importantly (is it?) during the letter tennis played in 2009 Cabot in response to a letter to them admitted that they did not hold a copy of either the credit agreement or conditions applicable to the account (they still dont as the reconstituted agreement they sent is still not applicable to the account) ...which to me seems to be an own goal on their part in as much as through the entire period cabot were being paid 2004 to 2009 they were adding interest to the account, the statements within the SARS show this..... Surely if the don't have copies of the agreement or terms applicable they cannot therefore enforce them or add interest ...?

If this is the case then forcing cabot to take action would allow us a cost lessened exercise in regards to making a counter claim against them for all of the interest added by them to the account plus damages? The interest they've charged is now more than the original debt....orig debt 5.5k ish, they've been paid £1500 of that over the five years, no breaks until SARS late 2009) which takes it to

approx £4000 and the debt stands now in Cabots figures to £11,547 . The grossly increases the alleged indebtedness by my Aunt .....

I should also add (already have somewhere) that there are also letters from Cabot within the SARS that state they're keeping the interest frozen due to no issues with the payment...but on one particular day added almost 2.5k to the account with no prior warning or no letters from them afterwards stating why....they were asked about it during letter tennis around the sars time and they simply replied there was a poor payment record....59 of 60 possible payments with one payment missing due to them not having any slips and requested from them....I dont think that is a poor payment record.

All of these factors plus many more not yet mentioned are why Cabot have not been paid a penny more since the sars request.

Given Cabot have been put on notice that my aunt is considered vulnerable by her doctor (plus other medical practicioners) yet they continue to harass her with false documents/ incorrect procedure, hugely added amounts of interest and no applicable terms and conditions...

 

However, I've gone a picked up the file from my aunts today and in going through the correspondence from them in 2009/10 Cabot have stated that they have not been able to comply with the request under the CCA 1974 So a request was made then..... so why did you continue paying them? and that until they have the relvant documentation the account is on hold.....standard procedure is this not? Yes.... However, the statements with the alleged CCA (request form is what it was) the interest continued to be added to the account... It is my contention that they do not have the right to add the interest anyway but here they are even though they've conceded that the account is on hold (up until they sent the alleged agreement) and they've all the time been adding interest. It's of no consequence if the account is unenforceable. I can appreciate how that sounds but until the account can be re-enforced, they are meaningless numbers on a piece of paper. Cabot have bought this without any docs.... that's how it reads anyway.

 

Also and perhaps more importantly (is it?) during the letter tennis played in 2009 Cabot in response to a letter to them admitted that they did not hold a copy of either the credit agreement or conditions applicable to the account So why pay them? (they still dont as the reconstituted agreement they sent is still not applicable to the account) ...which to me seems to be an own goal on their part in as much as through the entire period cabot were being paid 2004 to 2009 they were adding interest to the account, the statements within the SARS show this Ok, are you saying that payments were stopped in 2009? Apologies for the misunderstanding..... Surely if the don't have copies of the agreement or terms applicable they cannot therefore enforce them or add interest ...? Correct.

 

If this is the case then forcing cabot to take action would allow us a cost lessened exercise in regards to making a counter claim against them for all of the interest added by them to the account plus damages? The interest they've charged is now more than the original debt....orig debt 5.5k ish, they've been paid £1500 of that over the five years, no breaks until SARS late 2009) which takes it to

approx £4000 and the debt stands now in Cabots figures to £11,547 . The grossly increases the alleged indebtedness by my Aunt ..... So, you've paid £4K of a £5.5K (original) debt.... but their interest takes it up to £11K (ish). If that's the case, then there's nothing to re-claim.

 

I should also add (already have somewhere) that there are also letters from Cabot within the SARS that state they're keeping the interest frozen due to no issues with the payment...but on one particular day added almost 2.5k to the account with no prior warning or no letters from them afterwards stating why....they were asked about it during letter tennis around the sars time and they simply replied there was a poor payment record....59 of 60 possible payments with one payment missing due to them not having any slips and requested from them....I dont think that is a poor payment record. I think you need to stop playing letter ping-pong. Two years have gone by and you have not been taken to court yet and to be honest, it seems unlikely.... and even if they do, you could then raise the issues you've mentioned in your Defence.

 

All of these factors plus many more not yet mentioned are why Cabot have not been paid a penny more since the sars request.

 

Given Cabot have been put on notice that my aunt is considered vulnerable by her doctor (plus other medical practicioners) yet they continue to harass her with false documents/ incorrect procedure, hugely added amounts of interest and no applicable terms and conditions...

This needs to come to a close. There are no docs. Write and tell Cabot that you have documentation that states they have no Agreement and until such times as Cabot find themselves able to produce an original Agreement (CCA 1974)...... and provide a complete breakdown of all interest/charges added to date.... then no further payments will be forthcoming. Something like that....

I doubt that it'll go away overnight because letter ping-pong has been going on for years but it's a start.

yep! agreed

dx

Cabot took it upon themselves to state a request under the cca 74 had been made to them, they are incorrect as a sars request only was made. They were put on notice that no such request was made but they disregarded it.

Payments to them were halted in 2009 when the sars was sent as information within the sars was not consistent with what we have from them over the years.

When the sars came in we had some correspodence with them regarding the contents and put them on notice regarding the interest, no credit agreement, inconsistent documentation and that until they qualified their actions no further payments to an alleged debt would be made, they asked for the 'original' paperwork re what we had which of course was not sent.

All communication from us to them ceased and they did not write again until 3rd june 2011 with the 'request form' as their idea of an agreement, we have not as yet replied as everytime we do they fudge the issue and issue threats etc.

We are reluctant to engage them with mind numbing rounds of cak and we dont think it wise to give them all barrels as it would give them time to try and further fabricate documentation and we would rather take our chances with the paperwork in front of a district judge

But formulating a xxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx letter or see you in court might bring them to start action which is probably what we would like as it gives us a cgance to put into the public domain their stupidty and false documentation, threats, etc etc.

Just trying to see the best way forward and what others may think.

But formulating a xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxx letter or see you in court might bring them to start action which is probably what we would like as it gives us a cgance to put into the public domain their stupidty and false documentation, threats, etc etc.

 

Just trying to see the best way forward and what others may think.

Those are your options, as said. No-one can help you unless you make a decision.... all we can do on here is give advice. If you don't choose to follow that advice, then it's entirely your call.

Yet another thread on this......

More threads, less focus, more confusion.

Yet another thread on this......

Been awhile since I've laid my hat here, but things move along and here I am again.

Given I've been out of the loop for a time and by reading up I can see things have changed a little, most likely by those pesky DCA's keep issuing summons on people they think wont attend/fight and so go on to get a judgement that fits them perfectly and sets a precedent for all the rest of the DCA Cohorts to jump on too...

For a start

Is it no longer the case that a signed credit agreement has to be produced for a claim to succeed in court.?

What are the rules surrounding an account when it is technically in dispute as no credit agreement has been produced?

Has the law changed on stat barred debt, not so much by the time served but more the specifics when speaking to a chasing DCA. I may be wrong but it was always my understanding that for a debt to become stat barred no payment must have been made on the account for 6 years ....has this now changed by way of if you enter into correspondence with a DCA that that in itself is an admission of the debt and as such resets the clock?

More to follow (different thread)

They still need the original or a copy of it, for those CCA's that were taken out pre April 2007. But of course you would have to defend. As soon as any court claim is received, you must send off the CPR 31.14 letter for the CCA, plus any other documents. Also you must acknowledge the claim and issue the defence within the timescales allowed.

For a CCA issue From April 2007, they would not need the original or copy of the CCA and would purely need to evidence the debt.

Rules on statute barring have not changed. 6 years since the debt was last acknowledged. i.e payment made or written acknowledgement of owing the debt. There is a discussion thread in the Bear Garden.

In short,

Alleged debtor requested had been paying a DCA for an amount of time, however further along the line the alleged debtors life took a different turn and where they became physically disabled and following on from that became mentally ill. Over time their condition has become more acute and they are now classed as 'Vulnerable' and with their finances gradually being looked after by a member of the family as they are unable to make rational decisions etc etc.

It goes without saying that some of their decline in their mental health wellbeing has been excaserbated by the actions/activities of a DCA's with two in particularly adding grief to their alleged client. I've witnessed myself this persons demise health wise.

A degree of correspondence was entered into with the DCA, including requests for copies of the original credit agreement along with a Subject access request. Needless to say No credit agreement was supplied and the SAR had so many irregularities it made for an interesting read. In short, some of the copies of the letters they sent out did not match in any shape the originals which their alleged client had (unbeknown to the DCA) and where they DCA had added interest in huge amounts but with no formal contract in place to do so and where no agreement existed in the original credit agreement and which in any case was certainly extinguished when the DCA put them on a payment plan and where they offered that no interest would be added if the plan was adhered to...which it was looking at the statements included in the SAR.

But regardless of this, the DCA were put on notice that without any credit agreement, with so many conflicts in the SAR and the fact that their 'client' was indeed vulnerable that nothing further would be entertained and should they wish to proceed to court it would be defended with a counter claim. On goes the years (around 3) and with about 5 different 'agents' attempting to collect on the DCA's behalf (laughable when most of them are in the same offices) and along now comes a letter from a solicitor as the latest agent and one about to issue proceedings.

I know about the various toothless solicitors out there but these ones tend to issue claims and so the 'vulnerable client' will be put through the mill.

The problem the alleged debtor will have is they are in no fit state (physically or mentally, more so the latter) to go to court and whilst there is no doubt the DCA have some very difficult questions to answer in regards to the amount of the debt/ the charges levied for interest and the misleading the alleged debtor into thinking they owed a substantial amount

when clearly the do not....well, it's a difficult situation to know what to do next, it's obvious the DCA despite having been put on notice of all of the above had ignored and continued on is worrying...but worrying in as much as they seem not to care as to what affect their actions are having on what is a vulnerable person.

What is disturbing but par for the course is this alleged debt has spiraled from 4k with the original creditor (agreement was pre-1999) and despite the alleged debtor paying for an amount each month every month for 5 years (ok not a lot £17 I think it was) the debt has arrived at just shy of 12k ...

For me I think it would be better to go to court and where the DCA can well and truly be exposed for their disgusting antics, but for the alleged debtor it would be something that may just tip them over the edge and we see those sort of 'tipped' people in the news all the time where the pressure has gotten too much.

I should say that the alleged debtor has recently been assessed re PiP and their awards were consistent with their varying conditions, they will not be returning to work any time soon or even distant and have no assets.

So, what to do?

PS: I am not the alleged debtor

Is there any Payment Protection Insurance or charges that can be reclaimed ?

Have you a full statement identifying how the debt has increased so much?

Have you made a formal complaint to the Head office of the DCA ?

Have you considered making a complaint to the Ombudsman and FCA ?

Is there any Payment Protection Insurance or charges that can be reclaimed ?

None

Have you a full statement identifying how the debt has increased so much?

Yes, on the SAR on one day alone there was over £2000 added, nothing in the post sent to the alleged debtor or following statements from the DCA at any point until a few years later when a copy of the original credit agreement was requested from the DCA (there were other add ons of interest but nothing ever to the alleged debtor) and it was only then that the increased balance began to appear.

Have you made a formal complaint to the Head office of the DCA ?

Formally, yes a Formal Complaint was made, the DCA simply upheld their line that all was in order until it reached a point where the alleged debtor or rather their appointee seized communication with the DCA and suggEsted they commence proceedings.

Have you considered making a complaint to the Ombudsman and FCA ?

They did, but the DCA went quiet, the alleged debtors health had by now deteriorated and for a year or so they were off the map (hospitals/physio/mental health unit) The DCA requeste medical notes from the alleged debtor, the family attempted to liase with the DCA stating they were not willing to send the information the dca demanded but insted offered them to meet at a mutually convienient location (solicitors etc) where the DCA would be shown medical evidence inclusive of a letter from the GP stating the alleged debtor was in no fit state to even think about making decisions for themselves...The DCA did not respond.