walton v rbos

[bedlington83]

Re Mackenzie - do you think he's got £21 million hidden away anywhere?

 

I have friends who work in RBS in Edinburgh who feel unanimously that he's a scapegoat for more senior managers who needed things "tidied up". I think there's probably some truth in this otherwise he would have been found out far sooner. As they have internal audits at least twice year, somebody must have been covering things up higher in the food chain.

I couldn't agree more. Hence my earlier post about a class action

[yourbank]

As you'll know a loan with front loaded interest doesn't accrue interest whilst in default/arrears under the CCA 1974, so the bank would only be entitled to the interest stated under the agreement. However, if the bank deftly rebated the interest on default and set up the principle under the terms of a different "type" of loan then this would appear on paper that the customer has refinanced and boy would they get shafted ten years down the line as the new "type" of loan would have accrued an astonishing amount of interest whilst the account was in arrears.....Would this kind of practice benefit a bank?

 

 

 

Paul

 

Paul, my comments relates to the comment about bonuses specifically.

[yourbank]

I agree with yourbank, from what I understand there would need to be an increase in lending to accrue points, otherwise everyone would be on a bonus just by recycling loans. I'm also pretty confident that once accounts leave branch control there are no rewards available for future sales. I do know that debt recovery teams get bonuses on the amount they recover above a pre-dermined level which seems entirely logical.

 

Most of the guys I know tell me that the daysof quick points have long gone and RBS for certain now uses "clawback" where points are deducted for sales that don't stick. It was the same at Eagle Star when I worked there years ago. Far better to stay inside the rules and sell a small policy than force a bigger sale and risk losing the lot. If you had been paid a bonus earned over several months and the related policies were cancelled, all the bonus was taken back in one go!

 

Advantage Gold clawback plus insurance products as well is certainly in operation and mortgage applications are only on drawdown since not all applications go to drawdown.

Every banking product has a points target in branch network so for example, Step account is 5 points and financial planning(investments could at the point I went from the bank generate 3300 points---or more over the weeks depending on how it was done).

[RHOOD]

Why doesn't everybody that has been.

1. Lied to

2. Late paperwork

3. No paperwork etc

By the staff at CMS TELFORD, get their MP's involved as i can also prove that they have done all of the above.

If 30 - 50 people did this then our MP's would need to investigate this department and its actions.

[rickyd]

If you have a half decent MP it shouldn't need 30 to 50 people. One voter should be enough.

 

As I said before, find out who your local LibDem candidate is and ask them to contact Vince Cable on your behalf - we all know how much he loves the banks!

[paulwlton]

Paul, my comments relates to the comment about bonuses specifically.

 

Fair comment mate.

[paulwlton]

I don't have any first hand experience (at least I don't think I have - I'm still waiting for a response from RBS on CCA/DP requests). However I know, from reading stuff here, that both Sparkie and Paul have spoken to the press. The difficulty is that its quite a complex situation that isn't easy to present as an interesting news story. Having said that, Paul has indicated that there may be a story in the Guardian on Saturday.

 

My case will feature in the Guardian on Saturday in addition to exposing another shocking case to come out of CMS....all i can say at the moment, but there's more to follow.

 

Keep up the fight.

 

PW

[RHOOD]

The more complaints we put in

The more court cases can be filled in the bin

I will see them all they way

And if they win

I'll get a Deed Trust the very next day.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Then they will get about 7% of the debt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JonCris]

Please remember that where they are adding their contractual compound rate AFTER judgment they are relying on reconstructed & highly conjectured documents which may have no resemblance to the true original which does not allow for post CCJ contractual interest to be added. Unfortunately many of their victims have yet to realize this & hopefully the soon to be added publicity will cause more to come forward ........ This is NOT going to go away Mr Banker

[underdog13]

Advantage Gold clawback plus insurance products as well is certainly in operation and mortgage applications are only on drawdown since not all applications go to drawdown.

Every banking product has a points target in branch network so for example, Step account is 5 points and financial planning(investments could at the point I went from the bank generate 3300 points---or more over the weeks depending on how it was done).

 

Hi yourbank,

 

could you expand a little more on the advantage gold account 'clawback', please? I had one of these accounts and they pulled it with no warning.

 

Apologies for the mini hi-jack, Paul - your thread has become so legendary for those up against RBS, that the info may benefit others viewing it also.

[yourbank]

"clawback" is specifically around staff bonuses/point scored towards bonus so you want the full SP on that?

[underdog13]

"clawback" is specifically around staff bonuses/point scored towards bonus so you want the full SP on that?

 

Yes please - feel it could be very relevant to my current battles:)

[rickyd]

I'll save yourbank the trouble here, where an individual/group are awarded sales points towards a monthly or quarterly target, clawback exists to dissuade them from pushing products just get points.

 

If the products are cancelled within certain time parameters, the points previously awarded are clawed back thereby reducing the eventual score.

It can make the difference between getting a bonus and not.

 

It has been said to be unfair in certain circumstances, say where a product was correctly sold but where a change of events mean that it is no longer required. The member of staff has acted properly yet is still docked the reward points so in effect has worked for no gain.

 

Overall though it does tend to highlight serial wrongdoers and as the Area manager's + Regional manager's bonus can be effected too, it tends to promote better behaviour.

 

In this regard it actually helps the customer (can you believe it?) as there's less point in bending rules to score points.

 

There's also talk of deducting a percentage of these points at branches where an unusually high level of complaints is registered, but there would be an investigation first to establish whether its a blip or individuals with dodgy habits.

[yourbank]

Yes please - feel it could be very relevant to my current battles:)

 

In 2001 which is when I was in retail banking cos previously I was in manufacturing(LOL) you got points for Advantage gold which I think was 100 points, if memory serves me right and was double the points for a current plus. Now these points were never taken away so did lead to practices that the bank would not be happy about. I was trying to do a search of a bank where I worked where certain things done I heard of secondhand meant that the branch had a great sales record but shall we say the methods were very shady(I won't go further since it would be allegations and could be classed as libellous and the bank KNOWS who I am and where I live).

Around 2003/04 they brought back what was called clawback which meant that you lost points if the account was converted back with the first 3 months. That meant that a lot of the dodgy/shady practices did go however it did lead to some newer ones. I have heard the old one of "it will give you a higher interest rate"/ "we need to change your loan"/ "it will help getting you a better card". All the previous ones were not entirely good. Interest was 0.2%, loan wouldn't be changed, and unlikely you would get a new card. It didn't make the account that desireable.

Clawback means that if an account changed to advantage gold is then taken back so to speak then the points gained by a branch would be lost. So last time I remember it was 200 points and a current account was 75 points. Say the account was changed, then you lost 125 points...however if they closed the whole account you lost 200 points. You could find yourself 500 points down before you started the new week.

 

Does that make sense?

[Stornoway]

No. You pay tax on profits. As the inflated interest is an amount owed it can be treated as an asset (and resold) but it isn't income until its paid so it can't be profit and no tax is due.

 

No. The interest can be rolled up into the loan but would still go through the bank's p&l. It doesnt have to be paid in cash by the customer for the bank to be able to count the interest as income for p&l purposes.

 

The accounting rules are different if the loan is classed as being impaired or in default but it looks like the router accounts are effectively created as new accts with interest roll up and therefore the interest could be taken to p&l.

[Stornoway]

Perhaps this link should be sent to the MP's

 

We need to be careful with that case - the guy concerned was basically giving out loans without getting credit approval from the bank. I think he may also have stolen some cash (under £50k) but I thought it was pretty unfair to band around the headline of a £21m fraud when in fact these were loans to businesses which may well have been repaid over time but didnt have proper credit approval.

 

Its very different from the router accts which have been set up with the full authority of the RBS management / executive.

[underdog13]

.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Yes it does - thanks yourbank:)

 

Thanks also to Rickyd:)

[bedlington83]

No. The interest can be rolled up into the loan but would still go through the bank's p&l. It doesnt have to be paid in cash by the customer for the bank to be able to count the interest as income for p&l purposes.

Money that is owed to my business does not go through as profit or income. It shows on the accounts as amounts due in the next 12 months. Are you saying that banks have to account for interest due on loans that might not be repaid as profit before they've seen the money?

[Sparkie1723]

What RBS/Nat West do with and within the Router Accounts and its system....they run the account by using two different computer programs.

Program Number one runs the true "Book debt" (assett to the Bank)

Program Number Two runs the charges and interest....

these two are then added together to form a Total Debt

 

It has been admitted by Mr Richard Hemsley ( Chief Executive of Manufacturing who both Paul and myself have had separate meetings with).....A "book debt" is an assett to the bank....the total debt isn't......only the book debt part.

 

But what they do in Telford with these Routers is turn the "charges and interest" part of the total debt into another book debt, by using the other program which then becomes an assett on the banks audited accounts.

But in truth it is not.......the interest and charges is just paper invented money...it does not exist................but as soon as it becomes a book debt it does become "assett" money.

 

My Router had a "book debt" on "alleged" default of £171.57 within 15 months with charges it became £645.57 Total debt, they then split this into TWO "Book Debts"

Book debt 1.........£171.57

Book debt2..........£474.00

False assett on books of £645.57 Hope folks can follow this.

Mine is only a small one..............but we have proof of only about 6 (private not business accounts) Router Accounts examples amounting to £500.000.

 

These assetts are manipulated falsley to grossly inflate the "Book Debts" by very questionalble "creative accounting" procedures.

Mr Hemsley in a letter has stated that I should refrain from asking RBS branch staff about Router Accounts and RBS have statecto the media that they are only internal accounting procedures that the general public need not know about.

 

What do these two statements tell you?????

 

sparkie

Edited July 24, 2009 by Sparkie1723

[Dipply75]

So, in very basic terms, for every book debt in recoveries (CMS) they can liteally triple the asset value in this way. Like you said, each a/c may only be small figures but what volume in total is transferred to CMS each yea?

 

Double/triple that figure and thats quite scary. And if they then 'write off' chunks of the original debt....does their 'asset' balance drop by the inflated amount also?

 

Or am I just 20 pages behind lol

[Sparkie1723]

So, in very basic terms, for every book debt in recoveries (CMS) they can liteally triple the asset value in this way. Like you said, each a/c may only be small figures but what volume in total is transferred to CMS each yea?

 

Double/triple that figure and thats quite scary. And if they then 'write off' chunks of the original debt....does their 'asset' balance drop by the inflated amount also?

 

Or am I just 20 pages behind lol

 

Hi Dipply,

You have nearly got it.......they present the "Book Debts" as "assetts" when they want to borrow money from the world banks (They"falsley" show good Books) but they do not really exist...........i.e. they have created money on paper........they then can and have done used these grossly inflated debts in possession proceedings of peoples homes.............sold the properties ......hence turning fictious money into real money.......very clever, very intricate and all this has been done in "secretat CMS Telford" ....up till now....because Paul and me working together have discovered what they are doing.....if you do some sums on my figures ..the interest is over 200%.

 

sparkie

[Dipply75]

I am a simple creature but even I get the implications involved here.

FFS! Now I know why you've both not let go, keep at them

 

I will be quietly digging from my corner and am very much like a dog with a bone when I get into something, will be following you guys. Thanks for explaining.

 

Just so happens my MP is Mr McFall, Mr treasury select committee lol, think that would help or hinder?

[Sparkie1723]

I am a simple creature but even I get the implications involved here.

FFS! Now I know why you've both not let go, keep at them

 

I will be quietly digging from my corner and am very much like a dog with a bone when I get into something, will be following you guys. Thanks for explaining.

 

Just so happens my MP is Mr McFall, Mr treasury select committee lol, think that would help or hinder?

 

He is one man who would stir up BIG trouble for the RBS....you can tell from his comments in these committee meetings that he is not very happy with the Banks in any way.

 

sparkie

[paulwlton]

I am a simple creature but even I get the implications involved here.

FFS! Now I know why you've both not let go, keep at them

 

I will be quietly digging from my corner and am very much like a dog with a bone when I get into something, will be following you guys. Thanks for explaining.

 

Just so happens my MP is Mr McFall, Mr treasury select committee lol, think that would help or hinder?

 

Mr Mcfall's is aware that one of his constituents has also had their accounts turned into high interest loans. However, once the person was educated RBS withdrew their court writ.

 

Take a look.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/112022-help-ordinary-cause-action.html

Edited July 24, 2009 by paulwlton

[paulwlton]

Taken from the Treasury Select committee's banking crisis memo:

 

12. First, they have an incentive to lend too much. It costs them very little to create this money. It is not money they have obtained from anywhere but money they have written into existence in their accounts by a mere book-keeping entry. In the case, say of a house purchase, the money only comes into existence when the vendor banks the cheque written by the purchaser who has obtained permission from the loan-issuing bank to write such a cheque. I am told that in many cases, these days, that money didn’t exist before this instant. It wasn’t money obtained from savers or borrowed from another bank. It was just created.