A New Way of Looking at Interest- 1st successful Claim - N'wide

[Mindzai]

It's important to realize there is no rights or wrongs before you get to court when asking for interest.

 

Yes there are. For example, you cannot claim for a random rate and call it contractual interest. Your post implies that you can just pull a rate out of the air and go ahead and claim for it. You could certainly try that (although you wouldnt get far without any basis for claiming it), but you could not pull a figure out of the air and claim it as contractual interest. Contractual interest is, by definition, the terms under which interest is applies as specified in the contract.

[JOSH_IOU]

When did i say You could pull a random rate and call it contractual interest?

 

We are simply asking the banks for there money back it this stage.

 

Why can't we claim 29.9% or another random digit?

[phatram]

We are claiming the interest at the rate as per date of claim i.e 29.9%.

Thats what they would charge us.

[Mindzai]

When did i say You could pull a random rate and call it contractual interest?

 

You didn't, nor did I suggest otherwise. You did say "It's important to realize there is no rights or wrongs before you get to court when asking for interest" which is not true. The example I used to illustrate this is that you cannot pick an interest rate and call it contractual.

 

We are simply asking the banks for there money back it this stage.

 

We are asking for our own money back, not theirs.

 

Why can't we claim 29.9% or another random digit?

 

Like I said, you could try claiming a random figure with no basis if you like, but I dont suppose you'd get very far. What you can't do is claim a random figure and call it contractual interest. Contractual interest is not some blanket term; it is a specific rate and method of calculation as outlined in the contract.

[Nads]

That is irrelevant, since the bank is indebted to the customer for the amount they have unlawfully taken - from they day they took it, to the day they repay it. That means the day the charge was levied, to the day of final settlement.

 

It makes no difference in this case what the balance of the account is - indeed the interest applied on the charge by the bank would still need to be added, and 16% (for instance) applied to that also.

 

 

Does that mean instead of applying 8%, you would apply 16% (or whatever unsuthroised rate is used) and calculated on a daily basis.

 

Basically, we can still you the speadsheet only change the 8% to e.g. 16%.

I hope this is what is meant, because any other way is to complex.

[lucid]

Hi,

 

If you use Mindzai's spreadhseet linked in his signature in the post above yours, then his sheet will calculate both the statutory and contractual interest out for you. All you need to do is put your contractual rate on the first page (either the bank's unauthorised or authorised borrowing rate) and then put your charegs into the second tab. The sheet then calculates everything else for you.

 

Just remember that you can only claim for either contractual or statutory - not both.

 

Good luck. Lucid

 

EDIT: For anybody interested in contractual interest we have just had contractual interest at the unauthorised borrowing rate paid out on all three of our claims by Lloyds. Check out this post here for more details.

[Nick1_S]

Hi all,

 

I am new here and have been reading post after post and am getting utterly confused over the interest that I can claim.

 

I have written to Natwest and got two out of my three account statements for 6 yrs. I am waiting for the third but want to process the two right away.

 

So, onto my questions:

 

1) I have got the preliminary template letter and will process the two accounts in one go. I have downloaded Mindazi's spreadsheet and will include one copy for each account. I assume it is ok to do it this way?

 

2) I seem to be reading conflicting information on the interest issue. I want to claim back the charges + the compound interest on each charge at the daily rate set by my bank for unauthorised borrowing. This is what Mindazi's sheet gives me and ties up with the calculations I have done myself.

 

So what is the 8% that i can go for when I get to court on top of the charges+interest already calculated? I have seen a post here stating I can do that. But then most posts are saying you can only do one not the other, so you should have proposal for compound and the proposal for 8% as a fall back. But then I read that compound interest is a bit of a contentious issue and really untested, although the previous post states a successful claim. If compound interest claims are untested, why is it provided clear as day on the spreadsheet? And if some claims are successful, I thought this would be case law?

 

Help, I am very confused! All I want is the charges+the compound interest for each charge over time at the daily rate. I just want to get this right and make sure this is acceptable by those with experience on this forum.

 

Many thanks, sorry if i have repeated anything but i have read through posts and am struggling for clarity in this issue..

 

cheers

 

Nick

[maxine989]

Hi all,

 

I am new here and have been reading post after post and am getting utterly confused over the interest that I can claim.

 

I have written to Natwest and got two out of my three account statements for 6 yrs. I am waiting for the third but want to process the two right away.

 

So, onto my questions:

 

1) I have got the preliminary template letter and will process the two accounts in one go. I have downloaded Mindazi's spreadsheet and will include one copy for each account. I assume it is ok to do it this way?Yes, 1 spread sheet for each account. If you decided to write one letter discussing 2 accounts, just be clear on the figures for each account. I have done combined twoonto one letter before... but to be honest I found it easier to have them separate. It's completely up to you.

 

2) I seem to be reading conflicting information on the interest issue. I want to claim back the charges + the compound interest on each charge at the daily rate set by my bank for unauthorised borrowing. This is what Mindazi's sheet gives me and ties up with the calculations I have done myself.

 

So what is the 8% that i can go for when I get to court on top of the charges+interest already calculated? No. Either claim the contractual from the start or wait until the court stage and claim the 8%. You can't claim both.I have seen a post here stating I can do that. But then most posts are saying you can only do one not the other, so you should have proposal for compound and the proposal for 8% as a fall back. But then I read that compound interest is a bit of a contentious issue and really untested, although the previous post states a successful claim. I have won two claims with the higher rate of 16.9% and have some that are waiting for a court date at the unauthorised rate of 29.8%. The general consensus is that you claim what you are comfotable with. The best thing to do is inform yourself as much as you can by reading up and then make a choice. It depends how confident you feel about possibly stating you argument before a judge, although it is probably unlikely to get to that stage. Many people have different opinions. It is all down to personal choice I am afraid. If compound interest claims are untested, why is it provided clear as day on the spreadsheet? And if some claims are successful, I thought this would be case law?Some claims are settled before a court date... some by default... just because the bank are too snowed under to keep on top of all the claims being made at court and forget to acknowledge or enter a defence. Some a settled right before the day you are due to go to court. The winning cases vary. I would suggest you spend some time reading lots of other threads about cliams that have been won.

 

Help, I am very confused! All I want is the charges+the compound interest for each charge over time at the daily rate. And that's exactly what you are entitled to in my opinionI just want to get this right and make sure this is acceptable by those with experience on this forum.Help is always at hand. You go for it!!

 

Many thanks, sorry if i have repeated anything but i have read through posts and am struggling for clarity in this issue..No need to apologise Nick... we were all new once with little experience. Sme have a multitude of knowledge... some a little and some know lots about certain things but not so much on other issues... there is always someone who can point you in the right direction.

 

cheers

 

Nick

 

Nick... I suggest you start your own thread where you can record your progress and ask for help when you need it.

 

Maxine

[tim2718281]

Hi all,

 

I am new here and have been reading post after post and am getting utterly confused over the interest that I can claim.

 

 

1) The basis of all claims is that the banks charges are penalty charges; and because in English contract law penalty charges are unenforceable, the bank has no right to them if you disagree; so you can recover the charges.

 

2) If your account was overdrawn and the bank charged interest, some of that interest results from the penalty charges. Most or all of us think that you can recover the portion of bank interest resulting from the penalties, and the various spreadsheets estimate how much it is.

 

3) When you make a claim for money in court, and the court upholds your claim, the court can also, in line with legislation about court cases, award "statutory interest" on the amount you claim. This is 8% simple interest. My understanding is that this award is at the court's discretion. You can claim it, but the court is not obliged to award it. As "statutory interest" arises from legislation for court cases, there are no grounds for claiming it except when proceeding with a court case.

 

4) Contractual interest is a separate matter. The basis of a claim for contractual interest is that the contract means you are entitled to it. I think we can all agree that none of us have ever seen a contract for a bank account which explicity states you are entitled to interest on amounts unlawfully taken by the bank.

 

So, the validity of a claim for contractual interest is arguable ... that is, the bank can, if it wishes, turn up in court and argue the claim for contractual interest is not valid. And if it does argue in court, it may succeed, it may not.

 

The concern I have is that, if the case is not in Small Claims, and if the argument for contractual interest is the only thing before the court, and if the court decides in the bank's favour, the court *might* decide to award the bank's costs against you.

 

I have no idea how likely this is, or what the costs would be. However, the basis of this site is that people go in with eyes open to any risks they are taking.

 

So: you can certainly claim contractual interest; and as far as I can see, you can claim it at any stage - it is only statutory interest that you cannot claim untill issuing court proceedings, because the legal basis of statutory interest only arises from court proceedings.

 

If you claim contractual interest, and the bank writes to the court (or writes you a letter you can show the court) offering to repay all but the contractual interest, you then have a gamble: accept the offer of the reduced amount, or go to court for the contractual interest and take the risk of paying the bank's costs arising as a result.

 

And even if the court decides your claim for contractual interest is valid, I believe it can still reduce the amount the bank has to pay to an amount the court deems equitable.

 

My own view is that, unless your account was in credit or would have been in credit without the charges, then the contractual interest does not represent a financial loss you have actually suffered. And so you should not get hung up on wanting it ... even though you may feel the amount would be scant compensation for the aggravation the bank may have caused you.

 

The aim of all this is to get back the money the bank has unlawfully taken from you. If you can achieve that, you have won. Anything extra is a bonus.

 

Tim

[blobalbob]

I have a question about my claim and contractual interest. I asked the questions in my own thread but no-one has replied. Rather than re-post the question would someone have a quick look and let me know what they think I should do. Many thanks all.

Bob

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/52168-blobalbob-barclays.html

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Nick

 

I'm not in the least surprised that you're confused. This debate has been going on since July last year: friendships have been broken, tactical alliances made and severed, and strategic plans revised several times along the way!!

 

I have claimed the charges, the interest the bank charged me on them, AND statutory interest (8%) - and have WON, and my claim wasn't small! In fact, it was fast-track. (Maxine - you can claim both.)

 

My argument was that I was seeking back my demonstrable losses (charges plus debited interest) and recompense fo denial of benefit (the 8% statutory).

 

I personally believe that claiming charges plus UNAUTHORISED rate, but NOT 8% in addition, is a perfectly legitimate alternative to the route I went: it then comes down to a discussion about whether statutory interest or the full unauthorised rate is the more reasonable/acceptable/arguable alternative for denial of benefit recompense.

 

There are people who believe that the charges, plus interest debited, plus unauthorised interest rate on top, is winnable. I won't seek to make their arguments - they're perfectly capable of doing so themselves and have done, on other threads. I disagree and am not aware, yet, of any significant cases having been won on that basis.

 

But I'm not prepared to rehearse the arguments here, on this thread, and I hope no-one else is, either!

 

If you want to see how I got on, including POCs, letters, requests for Court orders etc, read my thread. Some of it's quite entertaining!

 

"And if some claims are successful, I thought this would be case law?" Not if it hadn't gone to a higher court. The banks are resisting that.

 

Best wishes

[Seahorse]

Ah, but did you get your monkey back. THAT is the real issue.

[natwesttookmymoney]

Read my signature, Seahorse.

[Seahorse]

Yeeessss. Gnatwest took my monkey. Your point is?

[natwesttookmymoney]

"Ah, but did you get your monkey back. THAT is the real issue."

 

"21 Feb 2007 - cheque arrived for charges+DEBIT interest +Statutory Interest! "

 

If it needs to be spelled out: yes, I did get my money. All of it. In three-and-a-half months, from start (preliminary letter) to finish (cheque).

 

And I did it without being rude or snidey, too.

[Seahorse]

You're a really, really nice person, and I hope I can be as polite as you when it's my turn.

 

Hooray for the monkey, by the way.

[maxine989]

Thanks for putting me straight Westy. I meant you couldn't claim both the 8% and the 16.9% contractual (or whatever the figure would be)... I wasn't meaning the O/D interst the bank have charged. I didn't think you could double decker?

 

[maxine989]

I have just re-read...

 

Debited interest... Yes I knew you could claim that as well as either the 8% or the 16%...

 

When I told Nick he couldn't claim both... I meant it wasn't possible to claim the 8% AND the contractual 16.9% (or the unauthorised 28.9% etc)... Just one or the other.

 

I didn't discuss debited interest with him.

 

Cor blimey... it's such a confusing lark aintit!! It's no wonder the new members are baffled!

 

[maxine989]

What was seahorse's problem!!??!!

 

[natwesttookmymoney]

Thanks for putting me straight Westy. I meant you couldn't claim both the 8% and the 16.9% contractual (or whatever the figure would be)... I wasn't meaning the O/D interst the bank have charged. I didn't think you could double decker?

 

 

Hi, Maxine

 

I put the interest charged on my charges at 16.9 (actually, it was 17.65)%, across the board. That was because of my own particular situation: I was in o/d for most of the past six years and had a loan, which covered an o/d - largely generated by charges - for about 4 of the six years. so they were charging interest throughout. That was my demonstrable loss. I charged 8% on top.

 

There is a school of thought which is pursuing interest debited plus contractual interest on top (now termed as additional CI, not double-decker). The arguments have been gone into in deep and exhaustive, not to say exhausting detail, on two other threads: 'Why is no-one claiming contractual interest" and "Contractual Interest discussion" (formerly 'Contractual Confusion Compounded Daily'). If anyone wants to see the arguments thrashed out ad infinitum, those are the places to go! Some smaller claims have been won with additional CI, only one for more than £2000 (as far as I'm aware) and that took nearly a year. FWIW, I agree with you but any thread that opens the debate up gets swamped with it! Suggest the argument is kept to the two that already have them!

[Seahorse]

What was seahorse's problem!!??!!

 

 

 

No problem. I'm just glad he's got his monkey back.

[ilibertine]

Im completely new to all this. As a student I'm fuming about the money they've taken off me. I've decided to claim my charges and not sure whether to include interest or not. Is it likely to be successful? Also, where do I send my initial letter, my local branch or the address they send their correspondence from?

[natwesttookmymoney]

 

Cor blimey... it's such a confusing lark aintit!! It's no wonder the new members are baffled!

 

 

Too right! the tortuous debate doesn't help, either!

 

W

[Nick1_S]

Hi Guys,

 

thanks for your points. However, I am still a little confused. Please could someone do a quick list of what each type of interest is exactly?

 

1) Debit interest

2) Contractual interest

3) Recompense for benifit

 

As I am wishing to claim back the charges I had when i was overdrawn (the whole time) so which type am I claiming? I would call it the unauthorised rate (2.19 per month or 29.xx per yr compounded) as in the banks T+C's. Sorry, I am just a little out of touch with the terms ppl are using on this board.

 

Many thanks for your help so far, hoping to get my prelims out this week!

 

Nick

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Nick

 

I understand your confusion! Let's see if we can, between us, sort it all out. My responses are in red.

 

Hi Guys,

 

thanks for your points. However, I am still a little confused. Please could someone do a quick list of what each type of interest is exactly?

 

1) Debit interest This is the interest the bank has actually charged you. It can be calculated very accurately by using one of Mindzai's or Vampiress' spreadsheets. Alternatively, if you're a serial or continual debtor, enter each item in a spreadsheet, together with the date, and apply the current authorised rate to them, one by one. Not as complex as it sounds - PM me with your e-mail address if you're having any difficulty and I'll send you a partly-worked example.

2) Contractual interest We try to avoid this term now, as it gets so confusing!

Three types of interest fall under this heading:

1. Debit interest - as above;

2. Authorised interest rate

3. Unauthorised interest rate.

 

 

There is a school of thought that believes you can get back charges, plus either 1 or 2, plus 3 in addition. That is being termed 'additional CI' (where CI stands for contractual interest). For the arguments behind that position, I refer you to the two threads I've mentioned above. I don't support them and believe they are extremely complex - but, as I've said, we won't get into those arguments here!

 

3) Recompense for benifit

 

When the bank has taken money from you unlawfully, you clearly haven't got it. And you can't do anything with money you don't have - such as save it or invest it. Recompense for denial of benefit recognises that you haven't been able to use the money. This is what the 8% statutory interest is designed to cover, and that applies regardless of whether a claim is for bank charges, a mis-claimed bill, a garage invoice for shoddy work, etc, etc.

 

As I am wishing to claim back the charges I had when i was overdrawn (the whole time) so which type am I claiming? I would call it the unauthorised rate (2.19 per month or 29.xx per yr compounded) as in the banks T+C's. Sorry, I am just a little out of touch with the terms ppl are using on this board.

 

Personally, I claimed debited interest plus 8%. I think you can, if you're confident, make a case for charges plus unauthorised rate, as an alternative: it covers both loss and recompense for denial of benefit. Its success - so far, unestablished - will depend on how the Court is likely to view the bank's enrichment at your expense.

Many thanks for your help so far, hoping to get my prelims out this week!

 

Nick

 

Does that help?