2/3rds, so around £200. so the letting agents wants this for the landlady and then 250 for maintenance and some other bits i cant remember but it all totals up about £600 in all.

when i say certain amount then i did state x amount so i guess i am screwed there. Like i say at the time i did not realise i would be paying the maintenance to the letting agents as well. Its only on refelection that i think the maintenance costs are valid but that the landladys own cleaning costs were not. so i geuss it is confusing on their part as i have agreed to one and then the other. Still the facts are the same. £300 or thereabouts cleaning costs are ridiculous, but i dont know if i have any chance in court. The only thing i have is that an inventory was not performed each time a tennant came or went. We renewed in march 2006 for 12 months i think, but will have to check.

Thanks for your reply. No, I stated i would agree to a certain amount of the cleaning. It was not stated as goodwill. It was a joint tennancy between the three of us initially, however as new tennants came and went an inventory was never perfomed. The tennancy was renewed every year, so for most tennants they were on the tennancy at some point. But they were not on it as soon as they moved in, only when the year came up if you see what i mean.

Hi all, I am in a bit of a situation, partly due to my own making i must say. In 2004 i moved in with 2 other ppl. We had an inventory and i would describe the house as fair condition for rented property. Over the next 3 years, ppl moved out and new ones moved in. I was the only person there the whole 3 years. The agent did not perform an inventory anytime that someone moved in or out. We moved out in May 2007. About a month before, my partner who was living with me in the house, had a meeting with the agent and the landlady as she was back from abroad and wanted to see the housse. So she had a look around and said she was very happy and loved what we had done with the garden as it was listed as a 'jungle' on the inventory. We cleaned the house up and my partner was present at the inventory. As the clerk went round she was spotting things like cobwebs and marks etc which my partner cleaned as they went round. So we were pretty happy that we had met the landlady and she was happy with the condition of the house and that we also had the chance to go round the property and clean the little things we may have left. But, we were then told we had to pay maintenance of over £200 and the landlady wanted £300 for cleaning costs, which she calculated herself for 2 ppl cleaning at £7 per hour. She also wanted money for a carpet and also for removing some items (bed, sofa) that she had verbally agreed to keep in the house at our pre meeting. The points i believe are in my favour are: 1. There was never an inventory taken when anyone moved in or out of the house during the tennancy. Its unfair the last 3 ppl get lumped with it all. 2. It transpires that at the time of the pre meeting, the landlady was thinking about continuing to rent the property. But after we had moved out she decided to move in to live there herself. It is believed that her standard of what was acceptable changed from being a landlady to actually living there. She has even stated this in a letter to us. 3. On the day we left, workmen entered the house and were there for days afterwards doing work on the house. Why would you clean a place before letting workmen in? We totally disagree with the cleaning costs, although some of the maintenance items are fair. We have tried to resolve this with the agent who have really been dragging their feet and have only jumped into action after i mentioned legal action. Where i have not helped matters is that in my initial letters i agreed to some of the cleaning for goodwill but did not state i disagreed with the maintenance. Now i am contesting the whole of the cleaning but agree with the maintenance. So my initial letters were confusing. My last two cleared up exactly what i want to claim and why. But there response has been that i have agreed in writing to both over time and they are more or less right. Has this completey damaged my case? The facts remain for me that the whole cleaning bill is infair. any thoughts? nick

Totally fed up now. I phoned the court and they informed me that they were the wrong directions and to send them back, which i did. After about a month (mid december) i phoned the court again as I had heard nothing from them. They said that there was something being sent out. So i recieve a letter saying that Natwest have been granted a hearing for an objection in Feb. I mean, this is just crazy. They have still, until this day, not submitted a valid defence and now they get a hearing for an objection? How can you object if you cannot defend? So i have outlined my views in a polite letter to the judge. They have had their 1st defence struck out, did not respond to it being struck out, were given 14 days from the hearing we had (wrong directions sent and never recieved right ones) and have still not, after months, submitted a defence. How long can this go on?? i am baffled as to what to do. Seems they can just do what they like : (

sorry! here we go courtdoc.doc

Hedgey, no the defence was standard as i can make out. I recieved this from the court the other day (attached). I am really not sure what this means. 1) Why is Norwhich Union being quoted? 2) A solicito turned up for tha bank, is that not the defendant. Have they sent me the wrong case breakdown? Nick

Hi, please read what happened in my own thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/71911-nickvsnatwest-2.html cheers, Nick

Hi all, just got back from Reading court for a judgement set aside hearing, here is a brief outline fo what happened: The Judge starts off saying he was a bit confused as to what the claimant wants from the hearing, as it appears i am opposing a 'stay', when in fact the defendant is applying for a set aside. I kind of thought they were the same thing, so its bad prep on my part. I just said yes, i am opposing the judgement set aside and he seemed to be happy and moved on. He preceeded to pick apart Natwest's defence and basically said he thought such a large organisation could do better! He went through a bit of the history and basically got an overview of the case. The bottom line is that Natwest are defending against a penalty, but then go onto say that they only charge a 'service', so in fact their defence's contradictory. The judge gave Natwest 14 more days (19th November) to come up with a proper defence. I raised my own issues with this, saying about the bad conduct throughout the case and asked the Judge how many chances can a defendant be given? He said he was prepared to give them one more chance. If they fail then i get the money plus all costs, if not then it is very likely they will get a set aside of the judgement. He said if this happens its up to me to prove my case is outside of the OFT test cases scope. I raised again how i believe that as my case was started last year when penalties were still penalties and had not been redrafted as services like they have this year, then i have a valid case. But he would not budge so Natwest get 14 days to rewrite their defence. I am a bit annoyed at this, but overall the Judge was very sympathetic to cases like ours and he gave the bank a bit of a hammering at times! His main point is that he does not want me to get into a worse financial position with some one as big as Natwest who have strong litigation. Not sure what he meant by this, surely if i lose i just lose my costs? What if i get my money but the banks win the OFT case? It was all very informal and good natured discussion on all sides. It really was not worth the anxiety i was feeling before i went in, its really nothing to worry about. Can anyone give me any feedback on this? cheers, Nick

Guys, i am thinking of sending this off to Cobbetts. I just think i need to do something to show willing: Ref: xxxxxxxx Client: National Westminster Bank PLC Claim no: xxxxxx Regarding your recent correspondence dated 05/09/07 which relates to a telephone conversation which supposedly took place on 05/09/07 between myself and Cobbett’s. I must confirm that no such telephone conversation ever took place. In fact I wrote to Natwest on the x x to state that their offer was rejected. I can only assume that there has been an administrative mistake. My reason for rejection is due to the fact that the offer was for the bank charges only. My claim was for the return of the charges plus interest. These charges have been unlawfully taken from me over a period of 6 yrs. I have calculated the interest amounts for each and every charge in the attached schedule. This has been submitted to Natwest and to the Court to support my claim. It is viewed that the court case is a last resort. If Natwest are willing to repay the full charges plus interest then the claim shall be discontinued. Failing this, I will appear to defend against the approval of a stay on the 5th November . what do you think?

Well things have just got a little strange. Thanks to all who have replied so far, you have been fantastic. Just to recap: 1) Statements recieved. 2) Prelim written - 14 days no reply 3) LBA sent. Over 14 days now and no replies. 4) N1 Filed. 5) Charges ONLY offer recieved, same day as N1 filed - Rejected 5) Defence Filed by NatWest 6) AQ Recieved 7) AQ ready to send 8) AQ sent 9) Defence struck out 10) Order served to obtain a suitable defence. No defence made. Judgement by default 10) recieved letter from NatWest stating offer still open for 2 months 11) Judgement entered 12) Cobbetts state they never the order in part 10, so applied to set aside the Judgement. 14) Hearing in october in Reading court for the stay order Then, yesterday i recieved a letter saying this: We refer to our telephone conversation on 05/09/07, in which you confirmed that our client has sent you a cheque in full and final settlement of your claim. As a matter of courtesy, we would ask that you now write to the court and discontinue proceedings in this matter. We have attached 2 copies of the Notice of Discontinuance. Well, unless i have a split personality or have been impersonated by someone, i can honestly say i have not spoken with anyone about this. What is going on, have cobbets made a mistake? I cant believe this is a tactic to force me to discontinue, as surely this practice would be highly illegal. I guess i need to write back to cobbets explaining the situation. Collating all the steps has made me pose the following question. If the defence was struck out, and now Cobbets and Natwest are claiming that they never reciveived an order for a fully pleaded defence, that still means they did not at any time respond with a fully pleaded claim, order received or not. So they knew that the defence was struck out, but they still did nothing. And now this from Cobbetts about the full offer sent by cheque, it all seems a bit strange. Help!!

thanks for looking this over guys. I am really in two minds over this. I think if they would give me charges+court costs +8% i would go for it. Whats the best thing to do, repsond to their offer in writing or just phone the right person up and talk it through? I know i read a thread somewhere where they just phoned up the right guy.... no i did not communicate with cobbets over the order. Damn it, i did everything else by the book!

Here is the application for stay. Hope its ok in pdf format! Part B.8 states that they did not recieve the order, i geuss this is possible? Nick Application for Stay.pdf

Guys, could someone please have a look at my thread below. I have a court date set for November for the set aside of a judgement. The Judge did not automatically apply the stay so i geuss he must be open minded to me proceeding. I really need to prepare for this, any advice? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/71911-nickvsnatwest-2.html Thanks in advance, Nick

Recieved a letter from the court today, i have a hearing on the 5th November for the defendants application for the judgement to be set aside. 30 mins duration in my local court - Reading. I dont know what to do now, my offer of 50% total costs runs out in a month. Does anyone know what chance i have?

Hi, Letter from Cobbetts today, NatWest have written to the court to apply for a stay. They have attached a copy of a 3 page letter sent to the court, outlying the background the OFT test case etc. I geuss i now need to respond to this, by writing to the court and asking the judge to dismiss this. I hope that due to the stage the claim had got to - judgement by default, that the judge will overturn the stay. The Judgement letter i recieved from the court(N225A), i filled in the reverse side of the form detailing the amount i wanted to be paid and the interest rate and sent it back. I hope this was the right thing to do, will this be seen as enforcing the claim?? thanks, Nick

Quick update - recieved a copy of the Judgement sent to NatWest today, for the full amount i requested. Is there anything that can go wrong at this stage, can they appeal? thanks Nick oh yeah, Natwest also wrote to me today saying that their offer was still open - for the charges only (roughly half the amount), for the next 2 months. But i wrote to them and rejected the offer!

OK, thanks Steven. To be honest, to get the charges back with 8% i would be very happy. I am starting to feel a bit greedy, especially as i rejected their offer of total charges but no interest. I stuck to it but i did not see this OFT thing coming so fast. Anyway, i will let you know what happens

Well by the time i posted my response to the judgement, this whole OFT thing had blown up and i have been worried ever since. ; ( I phoned the court today (Reading) and I asked them if the claim was still proceeding, and they said yes, judgement has now been entered and both parties have been written to. She said they would not enforce a stay at this stage, so fingers crosses i am nearly there. One thing though, on my judgement claim form N225A, i wacked on the full unauth interest of 29% that i have stipulated since the beginning on the claim (prelim, LBA, etc). I know the grounds here are a bit shaky, and i stated 2nd and 3rd fallback positions on my initial claim. How will this proceed? Could Natwest say, well ok, we will pay up but not for that unuath amount? I have not had a court hearing as this has all been pushed forward by the Judge. Can they argue the toss over the amount at this stage? Cheers all, i really hope we get more of these current claims pushed through. Nick

it was a joint tennancy, but it only ever got updated with my name. We all had a bedroom and shared the rest of the house.

We did sign an inventory when we moved in. But it was another housemate because it was a shared house and he has now moved out. Really, the agent should have performed an inventory each time someone moved out. There has been about 7 housemates over the yrs and now i am lumped with being the last one. So its not my signature. She has provided cleaning equipment reciepts (just gloves, cleaner, cloths, etc) but the main bulk of the cleaning was done by herself and another person. So she is claiming 2 days x 2ppl x £7 per hour at 7 hours per day. She reckons it took her 6 days (unbelievable!!) but she does not think its fair on us, so has reduced it to 2. I need to find that infantry, its here somewhere but we have just moved in. Also, we were never given a dillaptidation scedule is this another point in my favour or does it not really count? many thanks, Nick

Guys, just looking for some advice on the following situation. Have rented a property for the last 3 yrs. About a month before we moved out, we had a meeting with the landlady and the agent at the house. She had a look round and was generally very pleased, she even said she loved what we had done with the garden as it was just an overgrown mess before. We had some furniture that we would not use in our next place and she seemed very happy for it to be left in the house. the outcome of this meeting was felt to be very positive. It must be mentioned here that she was at this stage planning to let the property again. We cleaned the place up to the standard we found it, i even painted the door frames where they were a bit scuffed. We were present during the infantry and even attended to any cleaning that the clerk pointed out to us. I feel that as we took the time to have a meeting with the landlady and also were present during the infantry, that we made every effort to address any problems with the house. But, now the landlady has decided to move in and not rent it out. She has said it took her six days of cleaning to get the house to her satisfaction. The total bill was about £500. I have written to her via the agent and explained that she had a made a few valid points, for one the cooker needed cleaning, fair enough as we had not done the inside. But the rest of the cleaning labour cost is unnaceptable. She has written back and she has accepted two days cleaning, plus some other costs. She has offered £300. I still think this is unnaceptable. My case is this: she was happy with the condition when she was going to continue letting. However, now that she has decided to move in herself, the standard has increased. Thats not fair on us. how would this stand in court? many thanks, Nick

sent off the judgement today, we will have to see how this one swings, in light of the test case. My only hope is that Readiing Court seem to have been on the consumer side in these cases.

Just phoned the court, and no, they have not filed a full defence in response to this order! So i can now go ahead and enter for judgement. Should I do this or should I write to the bank as I have read that they do not like judgements and will probably ask for a set aside. What is felt is the best approach from here?

Status update: 1) Statements recieved. 2) Prelim written - 14 days no reply 3) LBA sent. Over 14 days now and no replies. 4) N1 Filed. 5) Charges ONLY offer recieved - Rejected 5) Defence Filed by NatWest 6) AQ Recieved 7) AQ ready to send 8) AQ sent 9) General form of Judgement or order recieved: Upon the courts own motion. The court has made this order of its own initiative without a hearing. If you object to the order, you must make an application to have it set aside, varied or stayed within 7 days of recieving it. IT IS ORDERED THAT 1) The Defence be struck out. It is not particularlised in respect of this claim. 2) Uness the Defendant filea and serves a fully pleaded defence by the 19th July 2007 the Claimant be at lberty to enter Judgement. This was by the Reading County court. If i understand this right, its good news. Hopefully they have not pleaded a defence and I can enter Judgement. Is this right? Many thanks Nick