Brittania/DCBL ANPR PCN - PAPLOC - claimform - appeal refused - St Johns Road West Birmingham

[supernick90]

Parked on a Britannia Parking site, thought I had paid via the app, applepay had not worked, later got a PCN.

Appealed and provided evidence of the attempted payment. Appeal was rejected.

The response to the appeal came via email whereas the PCN was sent via the post. I missed this email and have now received a letter from a debt collector who has taken on the debt and is requesting the payment.

The unreduced PCN was £100, but this agency is asking for £170 which apparently includes their costs.

Happy to pay the £100, but £170 is absurd given how quickly they referred the debt on. Do I have any option? I don’t want to risk my credit rating and any court proceedings may impact my job.

Any guidance is much appreciated = appreciate I may not have followed the ideal steps if looking to fight the charge.

[honeybee13]

Hi.

Don't worry about the debt collector and certainly don't pay anything until we've had a look at all this, or contact Britannia or the DCA.

Please answer the questions in the forum sticky and show us the PCN and your appeal, then we can start advising you.

HB

[supernick90]

1 Date of the infringement 27/07/2023

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] Don't have it to hand, but it was within 14 days. I looked into this as a means of disputing the notice.

3 Date received No longer have the document.
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Unsure. Appreciate disposing of the document may make some methods of disputing the notice impossible. 
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Y
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Y
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Yes - rejected
 

7 Who is the parking company? Britannia Parking

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Birmingham - St Johns Road West
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

The correspondence they sent notes the BPA

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here

I have received 2 letters from DCBL debt collectors - 1 initial and 1 chaser. Requesting £170.

I have contacted them suggesting they revise the amount they are requesting. They have emailed me in response stating:

"As the person named by our client, you remain liable for the full outstanding balance which is now inclusive of Debt Recovery fees."

 

I have acknowledged i am liable and was driving the vehicle. I don't think I have reasonable grounds to dispute liability for the actual charge.

I tried to appeal to Britannia's humanity stating I was looking after a baby and quickly tried to pay via the app and thought it had worked. I provided evidence of the failed payment as well as evidence of other occasions I had paid at that location. They rejected the appeal.

 

[honeybee13]

Thank you.

Did you keep a copy of your appeal? It sounds from what you say that you told them you were the driver on the day? Not a huge problem, we'll take account of that.

Please keep all of the correspondence from now on.

HB

[lolerz]

"I tried to appeal to Brittania's humanity" 

There lays a problem, these companies have none!

[supernick90]

Yes, very quickly realised that - how naive. First run in of this sort, so didn't appreciate that.

My appeal was via a webform on Britannia's website, so I don't have a record. 

I won't be getting any more correspondence from Britannia who have passed the case/debt on.

I tried to pay the charge to Britannia after my appeal was rejected via the details on the PCN, but they were no longer valid (presumably as debt had been passed onto collectors).

[Nicky Boy]

Thank goodness their payment portal doesn't / didn't work!!

Don't pay anything.

Have a read around old threads and learn just what you're dealing with.

Try our "successes" forum here...

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/347084-ppc-successes-no-questions-please/page/16/#comment-5234056

 

[supernick90]

My concern is that my job factors in "whether the individual has been the subject of any adverse finding or any settlement in civil proceedings".

Given the sum involved, it's not worth even the slightest risk to my livelihood in this going to court.

I appreciate that the private parking industry is abhorrent, but I would accept the original charge to draw a line under this (just not the additional £70 being added by DCBL).

I don't think I have the same recourse as many of the success stories. I can't appeal to a retail group to overturn the charge, I have admitted liability and there are no technicalities with how the PCN was issued or who owns the land etc.
 

[dx100uk]

Quote

I don’t want to risk my credit rating and any court proceedings may impact my job.

speculative invoices NOT EVER appear on credit files.

as for a CCJ, they'd have to win first and you not settle it within 1 cal month for it to ever show.

43 minutes ago, supernick90 said:

won't be getting any more correspondence from Britannia who have passed the case/debt on.

you will.

44 minutes ago, supernick90 said:

(presumably as debt had been passed onto collectors).

but not sold, so the brits are still the owner of the debt, speculative invoices are never sold on.

1 hour ago, supernick90 said:

Birmingham - St Johns Road West

we need bothsides of each letter to one mass pdf please.

stop worrying about a CCJ!! you can always pay it as i said

2 minutes ago, supernick90 said:

(just not the additional £70 being added by DCBL).

it is not being added by dcbl no-one can add anything bar the debt owner.

dx

 

[supernick90]

Even a settlement in civil proceedings is something I would have to declare at work.

"whether the individual has been the subject of any adverse finding or any settlement in civil proceedings".

I don't believe i have the letter any more unfortunately. I hadn't anticipated getting to this stage so got rid of it.

[Nicky Boy]

You sound terribly afraid and not the fighting type.

You "don't mind" paying the £100.

But, you object to the extra £70?

Complicated person... (aren't we all?)

If you just want it all to go away, pay it.

However, a LARGE number of these "charges" simply go away on their own.

Many even get to the point of issuing a claim, then drop it when faced up to with the appropriate response.

A very few actually get to court.

Then with Cagger's help. 85% of the victims win!

The 15% consists of victim's not engaging with CAG and making mistakes, and something we call Judge lottery. (judges in a bad mood or just applying the law incorrectly).

Anyway, if you're that worried and can't be bothered with the hassle, why not just offer them the original £100 which you're apparently happy to pay.

I suspect that they may be happy to take your hard earned money for a night down the pub.

But, be warned they are greedy and will probably still ask for more than the £100!

So, it's pay... or fight (probably several months of ignoring most of their letters/threats).

Your choice.

 

[lolerz]

If you got judgement against you and paid within 1 calendar month there is literally no way for your employer to know outside of you telling them?

A CCJ only exists to punish people who ignore the court. If you don't and pay up after a judgement against you a CCJ won't ever happen.

This will never appear on any credit file etc as it's not a credit debt! Simply a speculative invoice for a contract you may or may not have broken.

 

[supernick90]

I'm not particularly "afraid", I just want to be in possession of the facts, hence seeking the advice of your good selves, and this is (fortunately) not an area i'm overly familiar with.

The email from DCBL does state that if i don't pay then the client (Britannia) will decide how they wish to proceed. 

Perhaps will wait until that stage and reassess.

[dx100uk]

it would still of been subject to civil proceedings....

[dx100uk]

letter of claim - ignore till then.

FWIW gentlemen, this user is VERY aware of how court work and did a very good job on a certain parcel courier.

dx

 

[supernick90]

I'm subject to the rules of the FCA, so I would have to be forthcoming with that information. It may lead to nowhere given the background to the court proceedings, but just not worth the risk or complication as much as i'd like to further "the cause".

I can just about justify paying the PCN, as I did technically park without paying. Just not happy with paying DCBL's fees.

 

[dx100uk]

they are not fees charged by the debt collector DCBL.

they are unicorn food tax fees added by the brits . 

 

 

[FTMDave]

5 hours ago, supernick90 said:

My concern is that my job factors in "whether the individual has been the subject of any adverse finding or any settlement in civil proceedings".

I find this incredible.  It is inevitable in society that individuals and companies will get into dispute.  The state establishes the civil court system as a way those disputes can be settled, and no-one is punished by the state as long as they accept what the court decides.

Plus, you sued the courier.  You could have lost the civil case.

Well, it's up to you.

You can pay the £170.

Or try to negotiate them down.

Or refuse to pay like most who come on here and we will help you.

[lookinforinfo]

 

Debt collectors work with the parking crooks on a no win no fee basis. when they win they get paid £70 .This is not lawful from a number of points.

Under PoFA all that can be charged is the amount on the signage in that particular car park. i

in Parking Eye v Beavis the Supreme Court said that while £100 was not a penalty [yeah right] that amount was to cover all the rogue's costs. You do not have a contract with any debt collector in order for them to charge you any money and the mention of using debt collectors on the signage is insufficient when no amount is mentioned.

I would point out to Britannia the above reasons why you are not going to pay them the extra £70. And that as far as you were aware you had paid the amount so it wasn't as if you were trying to cheat them.

Tell them that you are perfectly willing to fight them in Court you do not have the time to spend arguing in the meantime. Therefore you are offering them a nominal sum [below £100 possibly £40 or £50 to avoid them getting involved in the cost of going to Court.

You would like them to understand that the Court would look favourably on the fact that you had tried to  negotiate in order to save taking up the Court's time. Plus it would be  cheaper than them taking you to Court and they would get paid a lot quicker.

It is a pity that you cannot produce the original PCN as that often has errors that can be exploited by you in order to avoid paying them at all.                                                                                                

 

 

[dx100uk]

just to make things 1000% clear in case this is also playing a part in this SN90 and you do not realise......

the involvement of DCBL is NOTHING to do with them being a firm of BAILIFFS, where bailiffs CAN charge fees lawfully when involved by a court/claimant if they win.

DCBL in this instance (read the end of their letter) clearly state they are NOT operating a bailiffs  (AFWIW NEVER CAN on a Speculative invoice!!) but merely as powerless debt collectors.

a DCA is NOT a BAILIFF

and have ZERO legal powers on ANY debt - no matter what it's TYPE.

[Nicky Boy]

LFI's "negotiation" suggestion looks like a good starting point to me.

As he says, it would be useful to have the original PCN.

It may well add weight to your "negotiations" if you're able to point out further risks to them "doing the court thing".

 

Why not SAR them to get it? Nothing ventured...

[FTMDave]

I agree with Nick.  You're not at Letter of Claim stage.  You have some time to decide whether to cough up or decide to fight.

Get a SAR off to Britannia.  Stick in some ID like a Council Tax bill otherwise they will use lack of ID as a reason not to cooperate.  Get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.  See what comes back. 

[supernick90]

As it happens I think I have found the document although I can’t put it into a single pdf.

Apologies for the dreadful attempt at obscuring personal details.

 

Brittania PARKING CHARGE £100.pdf

[Nicky Boy]

PDF's merged and redacted!

[supernick90]

Very kind thank you.