NPE Ltd PCN - Hire Car - Private Rd - Appealed - Longfield/Sevenoaks

[urbanc100]

"I recently received a charge for not having an E-permit for a car that I had hired on the private road where I reside.

I wrote to the IPC appeal for National Enforcement, informing them that I cannot register the hire car to my address as I frequently hire cars due to my job.

However, the response I received stated that my reason is not valid, even though I live on the private road where I received the charge, and that I cannot register a car that doesn't belong to me and if i do not pay solicitors will be involved.

. I am worried that I will continue to receive charges and I am unsure if this is allowed.

Can you provide any advice on this matter?"

 

Thanks

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG.

To get the pedantic bit out of the way first, what you've received is very likely to be what we call a speculative invoice. Only a court can fine you.

I see you've appealed, please don't contact anyone about this ticket until we've had a good look at what's happened.

Please give us as much information as you can, using our forum sticky thread questions.

Best, HB

[honeybee13]

Is it these people you've heard from? There seem to be several companies with similar names, it would be good to be sure which one we're dealing with.

Parking Management | National Parking Enforcement

WWW.PARKINGPROTECTION.CO.UK

HB

[urbanc100]

Hi 

Yes, its the National Parking Enforcement company.

They initially demanded a payment of £60 and threatened to increase it to £100 if I didn't pay.

I appealed to the IAS, but they rejected my claim.

Now, I have received a letter from TNC collection stating that I owe £170.

I also contacted Sevenoaks council, but they said they cannot assist me."

Apologies these were the steps I undertook as I thought I could deal with the issue.

[honeybee13]

Perhaps you could show us the documents please? Pdf form is best, with your personal details covered up, reference numbers, bar codes...

After that it would be helpful if you could answer the questions in the link I posted so we have a summary.

HB

[urbanc100]

Ok,  i will gather all the information and get back to you..

[lookinforinfo]

You are lucky that you will not have to pay these PCNs as they are unlikely to comply with the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 schedule 4.  section 14 [2]

the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer.(2)The conditions are that—

(a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper

As you are hiring a car when you got the PCN from NPE they should also have included a copy of the PCN that they sent to the hire company plus a copy of the contract with the hirer and a confirmation that you were responsible for breaches of the law should you incur them.

Most companies do not include these documents so you need not pay them.

Could you please complete this questionnaire to see what they have got this wrong.

The problem is that whilst you can get any current PCNs cancelled  you will need to come to some arrangement with NPE for future incidents since they will send the required documents making it harder to avoid paying their charges.

[dx100uk]

thread title updated.

it is NOT A FINE.....this is an extremely important point to understand

no-one bar a magistrate in a magistrates criminal court can ever fine anyone for anything.

Private Parking Tickets (speculative invoices) are NOT a criminal matter, merely a speculative contractual Civil matter

hence they can only try a speculative monetary claim via the civil county court system (which is no more a legal powers matter than what any member of Joe Public can do).

Until/unless they do raise a county court claim a CCJ and win, there are not ANY enforcement powers they can undertake other than using a DCA, whom are legally powerless and are not BAILIFFS.

Penalty Charge Notices issued by local authorities etc were decriminalised years ago - meaning they no longer can progress a claim to the magistrates court to enforce, but go directly to legal enforcement via a real BAILIFF themselves.

10'000 of people waste £m's paying private parking companies because they think they are FINES...and the media do not help either.

the more people read the above the less income this shark industry get.

i have changed your use of Fine to Charge.

please get all comms in/out up to one MASS pdf 

bothsides of every letter and in date order please

read our upload guide carefully.

 

[urbanc100]

Tnc DCA Chase letter + My appeal/their reply

 

TNC CHase letter + Appeal+reply.pdf

[urbanc100]

*Update* 

 

I have two charges of which I have contested, as the cars cannot be put into my name. 

The rental companies have also charged me for the charge coming through to them.

 

[honeybee13]

Thank you for the documents. I have some comments.

They aren't fines, you know, this is a private parking company and as we said, only a magistrates court can fine you. These are parking charges, or we prefer speculative invoices.

Your pdf docs have registration numbers showing that you might want to redact and at least one of them has the PCN number. We always recommend to obsure details like that.

Do you have the original PCNs [parking charge notices] please? We'd like to see those.

Finally, would it be possible to copy and paste your answers to our questionnaire and post them on the thread rather than in a pdf? That way we can find the information easily.

HB

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

Thank you for  posting some of the documents. I take it that you didn't receive any of the other paperwork I suggested you might receive when they sent the original PCNs . 

Could you please post the two original PCNs that you received . if you haven't been sent the other documents I mentioned on post 7 and don't bother contacting the rogues at  NCE or IAS. Both of them are out to get your money and will try to scare you into thinking you owe them money when you don't.

Just forget about them and their stupid threats. They cannot get any money from you even if they take the best lawyers in the Country. They can only get money from you if you decide to pay them. You have done nothing wrong and I suspect that if you read your lease which will be older than the arrangement with NCE, you will probably find that they have no right to issue you with any tickets. You may be able to sue them for trespass once again dependent on your lease.

Also you should inform the Hire company that they should not have charged you as you do not owe any money to NCE. And obviously you want that money back from them.

{Please don't for get to post the original PCNs].

[honeybee13]

@urbanc100 I've had to hide your post with the pdf attachments. Someone has pointed out that you left your email address in one of them as well as car reg numbers and at least one PCN number. Please could you edit and we'll put them back up.

HB

[urbanc100]

Great thanks for that..

 

I have enclosed your form in word and added the charge for one the requests and photos of where the cars were parked.

Is there anything that can be done to stop these firms chasing and prevent this from happening again when renting future cars?

 

 

2023-12-11 NPE PCN Final Reminder+1 Photo.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

Urbanc 100 the docs we would like to see are the two original PCNs you received. The wording on them can help to strengthen your case. Please redact your name and registration number but please include dates and times.

You wrote and told them that you had proof you were not liable for the charges. Could you please post that here. Also who authorised these rogues to "police " your private road.

Once we see your agreement to park there and for how long it has been in force perhaps as well as NCE contract with the people in the street we might be able to devise a way of allowing you peaceful times again in your property.

[honeybee13]

Questionnaire copied and pasted here. I'll remove the Word document because I believe it's possible to ID someone from Word. I've left the pdf docs.

1 The date of infringements?  1/23/09/23

                                                2/ 11/10/23 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] Yes

If you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it,

suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]

Has there been a response? Yes to the on eon 23/09/23 

Please AS A PDF FILE  ONLY ..post it up as well, suitably redacted. - follow the upload guide]

If you haven't appealed yet - .........DONT ! seek advice on your topic first.

Have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days] No

What date is on it? Give answer here

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? Yes

[scan up BOTHSIDES to ONE PDF of the PCN and your NTK - follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'s

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] Give answer here

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances] Give answer here

5 Who is the parking company? National Parking Enforcement 

6. Where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Longfield/Sevenoaks

[honeybee13]

35 minutes ago, urbanc100 said:

Great thanks for that..

I have enclosed your form in word and added the fine for one the requests and photos of where the cars were parked.

Is there anything that can be done to stop these firms chasing and prevent this from happening again when renting future cars?

Fine Doc - Photos.pdfUnavailable

 

Fine Doc - Photos.pdf 650.6 kB · 2 downloads

Could we slow down a bit please? We're trying to help you but we need to see all the documents you've received so we can understand where NCE are coming from. Once we know that, we can look at a way forward.

I know I'm repeating stuff but we really need to see the PCN please, back and front and redacted of personal information, reference numbers, etc.

Also, if you re-read what we said yesterday these aren't 'fines' although a lot of people call them that, including journalists who haven't understood the system.

HB

[FTMDave]

Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 deals with specific wording in these invoices and the timescales in which they must be sent to the motorist.  A lo of the time the parking companies - especially the smaller cowboy ones - don't get it right.  They mess up especially with hire cars.  That's why everyone is going on about us needing to see the two original invoices, not the reminder letters.

We also need to see what you wrote in your appeal - i.e. if you outed yourself as the driver.

Some more things.

You say you appealed to the IAS.  Are you sure about this?  The IAS is not an individual parking company, it is the appeals body for one of the two trade associations.

How much did the hire company make you pay for passing on the two invoices and how did they take the money?

Also, for the future, why can't you get National Parking's carpy e-permit when you hire cars?  What's stopping you?

[dx100uk]

its not a fine stop using that word. 

private parking companies issue speculative invoices which are NOT FINES.

PDF's sorted. and put back up for you.

please use ONE MULTIPAGE PDF for everything in the future not multiple single page files.

also your hire company cant charge you a handling fee as these are NOT Penalty Charge Notices issued by a local Council.

pers i'd go do a chargeback from your bank for the handling fees.

dx

 

[urbanc100]

Will clarify some of the points discussed.

1/ I was asked to appeal to the IAS (Independent Appeals Service) whoever they are to dispute the penalty.

2/ I have been charged by both Europcar and Thrifty for the so-called notification of not having an e-permit

3/I have found the original which was sent to Europcar,(which I have attached) , this was emailed to me,  I have not received the Thrifty original just the reminder.

4/ Yes going forward I can request an e permit  but it is deemed necessary was my point as it is a rental car.

5/ Thanks for sorting the PDFS appreciated.

 

 

2023-09-27 NPE PCN NTK TO Eurocar hire group.pdf

[FTMDave]

I don't think you've really understood what is going on here.

It's common, in residential complexes, for the management company to think they need to regulate parking.  Being generous for a moment, I suppose they think they need to stop people from outside the complex from abusing the parking facilities which are for residents, not outsiders.  So they call in an "expert" (ho! ho!) private parking company.

Unfortunately, as you have discovered, once the management company let these vermin loose to infest the car park they get down to making money by ticketing genuine residents like yourself.

This is simply a private initiative.  It's got nothing to do with any council.  What you have received are two invoices from a private company.  They are not fines or penalty charge notices. 

I know this is new to you but you need to start now, as we all did once, to learn a few basic legal concepts.

You keep asking if an e-permit is necessary.  In what sense?  This private initiative requires every car in the car park to have an e-permit.  So if you want to avoid hassle with the PPC then get an e-permit each time.  Yes, we hate these companies, yes they shouldn't be there, yes they shouldn't have been called in by the management company, but if it's easy to get this daft e-permit then do it to avoid aggro from them.

There is a huge amount to take in on your thread.  However, two immediate points.

1.  You have decided not to pay this company.  Good.  Just laugh at the DCA letter and ignore it.  it's a scare tactic.  A DCA has no powers to do anything as its not their debt.

2.  This is not a penalty charge notice from the council, it is a simple private invoice, therefore neither of the two hire companies should have charged you a penny for forwarding a letter.  They are trying it on.  As dx says, go and start the chargeback procedure with your credit card provider to get your money refunded.  The law is on your side.

[dx100uk]

2 hours ago, urbanc100 said:

1/ I was asked to appeal to the IAS (Independent Appeals Service) whoever they are to dispute the penalty.

it is NOT A PENALTY.

2 hours ago, urbanc100 said:

2/ I have been charged by both Europcar and Thrifty for the so-called notification of not having an e-permit

neither of those can charge you it is NOT a PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE FROM A LOCAL AUTHORITY or A ROAD TRAFFIC OFFENCE.

go ring your bank and demand a chargeback for each fee charged.

they should be listed on your bank statement.

 

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

Urbanc 100 thank you for posting the original PCN. I was surprised that it was sent to you as the parking rogues usually do not bother to send it thus  their PCN  does not comply with PoFA and you are in the clear meaning that you are not liable to pay the charge as either the hirer or the driver.

I did ask in my first post if you could kindly sent all that you have received from NCE. That should include the original PCN that was sent to Euro; a copy of the hire  contract  confirming you were the hirer on the day of the alleged breach; a copy of your signature acknowledging to Euro that you were responsible for Penalty Charge Notices and  the PCN that was addressed to you.

This is the fourth time that I have asked and so far all I have received from you is one of  the original PCNs. and nothing about the second PCN. Though from what you say they did not send any other paperwork with it. This should mean that PoFA has not been complied with and you are not liable to pay even if you end up in Court. And that does seem very likely from the point of view of your appeals since talk of fines and penalties is an indication to them that you are pretty green about the workings of the private parking industry. And therefore an ideal person to take to Court where they can further rip you off instead of getting away Scot free if we can see what you have been sent. The original PCNs both to the Hire companies and your self  need to contain certain explanations which if not included can mean the PCNs will be quashed in Court- but only if their flaws are identified.

At the moment you are looking at a bill in Court of around £500 if things go wrong for you. I was a bit worried when you said "I have found the original ..." suggesting perhaps that you have mislaid or thrown out the other PCNs and other paperwork.  I do hope that is not true  since we don't want to send an sar  when the rogues may decide to comply with Act by sending you the correct documents then and you won't be able to dispute their accuracy which could lead to losing in Court.

Hiring cases are among the easiest to legally avoid paying but only if the necessary documents are missing or wrongly worded. 

So I am asking you  to kindly  post the papers I have mentioned above in this post and include  both PCNs and any other docs that were included at the time.

I do not want your appeals, their replies nor begging letters from unregulated ignorant debt collectors.

 

 

 

 

[urbanc100]

I have attached documents related to the first fine and initial correspondence from Europcar.

Thrifty has not sent me anything initially, and I only received the reminder.

I even searched on the National Parking Enforcement site for the original document.

I have tried to reach out to Thrifty, but I might get a response in a month or so!

These are all the documents I have, including initial correspondence and follow-ups. I have decided to ignore the fines, but to avoid any hassle in the future, I will inform them of my  rental cars, of which there will be many.

I am not willing to go to court and incur extra costs. If I need to pay the fines to get rid of them, then so be it. Lesson learned.

I do not have any other documentation to provide, and although I understand the situation, I feel that this thread is more complex than it needs to be.

 

 

NPE appeal-reply.pdf Eurocar Invoice.pdf

[honeybee13]

Obviously we can't stop you paying the charges to stop them trying court. But you're encouraging NPE to keep going after other people with spurious parking 'breaches'.

What is your plan if you receive further PCNs from them?

Also, are you going to talk to the hire companies about them charging for something that isn't a council parking ticket?

HB