UKPCLtd/DCB legal ANPR PCN claimform - McDonalds Baguley 1062 673 Altrincham Road, Wythenshawe M23 9AA.

[FTMDave]

I've been on the site seven years and never seen one judge look badly on saying no to mediation.

 

Have you ever seen an example on any of the other similar threads you've read?

 

Sorry, but your brother is the one that's being sued, therefore your brother is the one who will have to go to court.

[prestton]

Again it’s easy to say but not so easy to do especially if you’re not well and have never been to any sort of court before. 

I guess as I’m trying to give him some advice on this I’m torn between trying to get some sort of resolution as it’s easily possible he could go to court and lose (along with all the additional stress that could cause). 

Is there anything to lose with mediation, you don’t have to accept any outcome? 

Also, in regards to suitability for determination, might that be a way to avoid court for him?

Especially as there are no experts/witnesses to call. 

Do you believe the legal arguments are strong enough to beat them?

Would I be allowed to go too? 

[broken arrow]

Yes you can attend the hearing as a Mckenzie friend, I will be doing this with my daughter who also has a claim against her from UKPC/DCB Legal.

[FTMDave]

We're obviously sorry to hear about health problems, but the unfortunate reality is that your brother is stuck with the legal system in England & Wales like all of us are.  He's being sued, he goes to court.  That's the law.

 

As far as I know courts are open to the public, so yes you could go too.

 

However, he's the one who will have to deal with the case in court.

 

You're re right about being worried about him losing.  We've sadly seen here several times that a brother/friend/partner of someone in legal trouble comes here, puts in a lot of research and superbly gens up on legal arguments - but then a completely different person goes to court, hasn't got a clue, and loses.

 

He should be the one running the thread.

 

As for the rest, only he can decide.  It's bemusing as to why he decided to not pay the fleecers their £60 and instead battle them, if now he won't/can't battle them.  As a guestimate we've already tried to put the figures that mediation would achieve.  The decision is up to him. 

 

 

[prestton]

Nobody has mentioned what mediation might achieve.

Somebody said that ‘settlement might knock a tenner off’ but that was settlement directly with the claimants solicitors not mediation with an independent mediator. I assumed that would be different. 

I was very clear with the legal arguments previously when I was dealing with DCA’s but have to admit in spite of doing research it seems a bit more sketchy with this.

 

He didn’t pay previously as that was the advice.

But clearly it’s at the stage now where it can’t be ignored so I’m trying to help him. 

And to answer your question, he’s ill now but wasn’t then (over a year ago), his hope was this wouldn’t come this far.

Now it has, it can’t be ignored. 

[dx100uk]

11 minutes ago, broken arrow said:

Yes you can attend the hearing as a Mckenzie friend, I will be doing this with my daughter who also has a claim against her from UKPC/DCB Legal.

but you cannot speak for the defendant.

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

All the independent mediator does is pass messages between the parties, so whatever result it will achieve will be similar to contacting the fleecers directly.

 

As a guestimate I've said they might knock £25 off but I don't really know, no-one here ever chooses mediation in a PPC case. 

 

If something like that might be acceptable to him, then fine, choose mediation.

[broken arrow]

8 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

but you cannot speak for the defendant.

 

dx

 

 

Although you,re not entitled to speak on their behalf, you can ask for" rights of audience", the Judge will probably decline, but the last time I did it, I was allowed, I ended up speaking more than the defendant, but as a minimum you can take notes, pass notes etc.

[prestton]

Noted. Do you think the legal arguments are sufficient if presented correctly to win v UKPC? This is what I’m unsure with this. I’ve tried to see but have there been lots of success stories on PPC cases once it gets to court? 
Is it possible they might still not proceed before it gets to court? 

 

[FTMDave]

On 04/01/2023 at 20:31, FTMDave said:

I recently had to work out CAG court victories over the last two and a bit years with one of the PPCs, and it was over 80%.  So he has an 80%+ chance of winning in court if he prepares his case properly.

 

[honeybee13]

Spot on Dave, I was about to post that.

 

HB

[nightnajjers]

You can appear with the defendant as a Lay Representative and speak for them with the judges approval. I just did this.

 

On returning the WS I asked that my partner attend with me and appear as Lay Representative.

 

On the day the judge asked my partner if that was ok.

She asked the Claimant's solicitor if she was ok with that.

 

All agreed and my partner presented the whole case on my behalf.

A McKenzie friend is different to  Lay representative

Edited January 18, 2023 by dx100uk
great post!! - dx

[prestton]

Ok folks. Due to my brothers current fragile mental state I’m proposing the following. 

1. Will refuse mediation. 

2. Will agree to suitability of determination as this means I can help prepare the legal arguments on paper with advice from here (WS completion etc) without putting him through an appearance before a DJ. 

I realise this isn’t what would be advised by the experts and as much as I’d love to screw them down in court some things are more important and that includes my brothers mental health. If it was my case I’d be there in a heartbeat. I can’t take the risk the judge won’t let me speak on his behalf, he just wouldn’t be able to handle it. 

I’ll complete the DQ and come back at next stage. 

At least we can drag it out as long as possible

[dx100uk]

2 hours ago, dx100uk said:

Suitability for determination without a hearing? no (read all the posts in N180 link above for the reason)

you do the above as advised.

 

as for you and him in court as @nightnajjers excellent post above

You can appear with the defendant as a Lay Representative and speak for them with the judges approval. 

 

that you address later in the process . not for the N180.

fill it out exactly as my guide earlier above.

 

dx

 

[prestton]

And what happens if the judge doesn’t give his approval? I just can’t put my brother through it! 
Not everything is as black and white as you see it I’m afraid. 
Andy says in that thread to say no if there are witnesses that the judge needs to hear from. There aren’t any witnesses so it doesn’t seem to apply here 

[Nicky Boy]

presston,

 

You are comitting to nothing following dx's advice.

 

Even if the judge disallows lay representation, (I would think unlikely with your very reasonable explanation on his state of mind) your brother could back down at the very last second and allow judge to make decision without him speaking.

[prestton]

Ok, DQ will be completed based on all advice received. Thanks 

[nightnajjers]

Practical Direction 27A Small Claims Track

(2) a lay representative means any other person.

3.2

(1) A party may present his own case at a hearing or a lawyer or lay representative may present it for him.

(2) The Lay Representatives (Right of Audience) Order 1999 provides that a lay representative may not exercise any right of audience:–

(a) where his client does not attend the hearing;

(b) at any stage after judgment; or

(c) on any appeal brought against any decision made by the district judge in the proceedings.

(3) However the court, exercising its general discretion to hear anybody, may hear a lay representative even in circumstances excluded by the Order.

[AndyOrch]

48 The Representation of the People Act 1983 is amended in accordance with paragraphs 49 to 52.

 

49 In section 86 (authorised excuses for failures as to return and declarations)—

 

(a)in subsection (1A), for “or solicitor” substitute “ , solicitor or authorised person ”, and

(b)after that subsection insert—

“(1B)In subsection (1A) “authorised person” means a person (other than a barrister or solicitor) who, for the purposes of the Legal Services Act 2007, is an authorised person in relation to an activity which constitutes the exercise of a right of audience (within the meaning of that Act).”

[Gick]

Broken Arrow a Mackenzie friend is a term used in CRIMINAL cases, where a person (not being authorised to have right of audience such as solicitor) can sit with a defendant and assist them by handing them documents, look up legal books, suggest questions to ask witnesses (written notes) etc. They cannot address the court.

[broken arrow]

9 minutes ago, Gick said:

Broken Arrow a Mackenzie friend is a term used in CRIMINAL cases, where a person (not being authorised to have right of audience such as solicitor) can sit with a defendant and assist them by handing them documents, look up legal books, suggest questions to ask witnesses (written notes) etc. They cannot address the court.

I,ve been a Mckenzie friend on 3 occasions, all in civil procedures and on 2 occasions I have been allowed right of audience, the term derives from a divorce hearing in the 70,s between McKenzie and McKenzie.

[FTMDave]

Have a look at this sticky.

 

It describes how to visit the local county court and familiarise yourself with what goes on.

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/373518-guidance-note-making-a-county-court-familiarisation-visit/

 

Maybe doing something like this might put your brother at ease.  Just an idea.

[nightnajjers]

As far as I can determine now, you do not need the Courts permission to use a lay representative. 

 

when researching  I read some where that you need permission, I can't find that rule anywhere now.

 

When I sent my ws. I asked the courts permission to have a  lay representative.

 

On actually being in Court the Judge was unaware (or did not mention it) that I had requested a lay representative. I am almost sure it has to be allowed. 

 

Prestton could just phone the Court and make certain that is the case,

[prestton]

Hi folks, brother received this today. Guess this is good news, at least for now?

 

N24 order -POC not compliant file new by 17-04.pdf

[dx100uk]

yep await the 17th.

thread tidied