British Airways denied claim

[Nirkster]

Hello everybody,

BA denied my claim of a flight which was cancelled due to bad weather. The weather that afternoon was cold and a bit rainy but far from bad weather. It was the only flight which got cancelled that around that time from Heathrow.

 

There message was:

Thanks for contacting us about your claim for EU compensation. We're sorry it was necessary to cancel your flight to Frankfurt on 08 September. Your claim's been refused because BA0916 on 08 September was cancelled due to adverse weather conditions.

 

Do I have to accept this? This sounds like a shi**y excuse to dodge paying me.

 

Any pointers or advice what I should do next?

 

All the best

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG.

 

There may be ways of checking the weather that day, I'm sure other people will know.

 

It could be that the bad weather was in Frankfurt but as I say there could be a way to check. Please bear with us until people in the know are able to get here.

 

Best, HB

[Nirkster]

Hello Honeybee13

thanks for looking into this issue! Much appreciated

[whitelist]

Do not take this as Gospel, but personal opinion.

 

The majority of insurance companies in the UK have the provison of Force Majeur, or commonly known as an act of God event that stops a party from fulfilling a contractual obligation. Things such as war, Hurricanes, volcano etc. These exclusions are now normally written into the t&c with the airline ticket and list specific exclusions from liability. The airline will say the bad weather was beyond its control.

 

The key thing you need to show is was how long was the flight delayed before it got cancelled? From memory believe it is three hours or more before EU compensation applies.

 

The other problem being BREXIT. You can only make an EU flight delay claim/cancelation in an EU member state with an airline based in the UK. In this case Frankfurt, not the UK. 

[Kyosanto]

If you just say "that afternoon" there is no way we can check weather reports and help you. Need the exact date and times of your flight.

 

"Bad weather" is the number one excuse of shi**y airlines to deny EC261 and there is a very good chance you can contest that. To be denied it would have to be extreme weather like a hurricane or gale force winds - but airlines always try and pull a "there was a snowflake on the runway". Don't let them.

 

Here's an online tool I found that claims it will check weather for you, by all means give it a try, but be wary that online solicitors will take part of your cash reward away for something you can do yourself.

 

Whitelist is wrong to claim that EC261 does not apply because Brexit. UK courts are de facto still applying EC261 rulings. 

 

Forgot the actual link:
Claim your Compensation for delayed flights | Flightright

 

[whitelist]

EU Regulation EC 261/2004 remains valid for flights from a non-EU carrier that depart from an EU country airport.

 

The departure was from the UK . a non EU airport to Frankfurt, so EC 261/2004 does not apply

 

Any claim under the Directive will have to be made in Frankfurt

Edited September 21, 2022 by whitelist

[Kyosanto]

Again, you are wrong.

 

Uk courts continue to apply EC261 for UK airlines and flights departing the UK. We're no longer EU but the jurisprudence still applies.

 

This may end some day with Brexit, but this day is not there yet.

 

Ok i saw that your message from BA included the date and I found your flight, the evening flight which was the only one to be cancelled.

 

These are the METAR weather data for 1900 to 2200 that evening of 8th September for both Heathrow and Frankfurt. Winds are below 10 knots, so well below the safety margins. Some low clouds in LHR but none in FRA. Absolutely nothing of concern here that would stop flights from take off or landing. In other words. BA is lying and you should feed this weather data back to their face and say you will see them in small claims court if they persist to refuse.

 

ARCHIVED METAR OF: 20220908 // FROM: 19 TO: 22  UTC
AIRPORTS REQUESTED: EGLL EDDF 

EGLL 081920Z 18007KT 150V210 9999 -SHRA SCT013TCU BKN023 BKN032 15/14 Q1003 RESHRA TEMPO SHRA
EGLL 081950Z 19009KT 9999 SCT014CB BKN028 16/14 Q1003
EGLL 082020Z AUTO 18007KT 140V220 9999 SCT015/// BKN021/// BKN027/// //////CB 16/15 Q1003 TEMPO BKN012
EGLL 082050Z AUTO 17007KT 120V210 9999 -RA SCT016/// SCT026/// //////CB 16/15 Q1003 TEMPO SHRA BKN010
EGLL 082120Z AUTO 18007KT 130V200 9999 FEW008 SCT028 15/14 Q1002
EGLL 082150Z AUTO 17007KT 9999 SCT016 BKN026 15/14 Q1002
EGLL 082220Z AUTO 18007KT 9999 BKN024 15/14 Q1002 TEMPO SHRA
EGLL 082250Z AUTO 17003KT 150V240 9999 SCT027 BKN031 15/14 Q1002 TEMPO SHRA

EDDF 081920Z AUTO 19006KT CAVOK 16/13 Q1011 NOSIG
EDDF 081950Z AUTO 19005KT CAVOK 16/13 Q1011 NOSIG
EDDF 082020Z AUTO 16004KT 140V200 CAVOK 16/13 Q1011 NOSIG
EDDF 082050Z AUTO 19005KT CAVOK 15/13 Q1011 NOSIG
EDDF 082120Z AUTO 18004KT CAVOK 15/12 Q1012 NOSIG
EDDF 082150Z AUTO 21004KT 9999 -SHRA FEW///CB 15/13 Q1011 NOSIG
EDDF 082220Z AUTO VRB02KT CAVOK 15/13 Q1011 NOSIG
EDDF 082250Z AUTO 27003KT CAVOK 14/13 Q1011 NOSIG

 

If you want to play around a bit more with stuff,

 

grab the weather data here:

AVIATION WEATHER CHARTS ARCHIVE

AVIATIONWXCHARTSARCHIVE.COM

---

Aviation weather charts archive. Archive of weather charts. Wx Charts. Aviation Charts. Aviation Wx Archive. Significant weather charts archive. Sigwx weather charts archive. Wind charts archive. Taf archive. Tafs archive.

 

Paste the codes on this website to decode them and see what they mean:

E6BX | Aviation Calculators

E6BX.COM

---

E6B, NavLog Calculator, Weather Reports, METAR, TAF, Wind Components, Instrument Simulator, Weight and Balance, Pressure Altitude, Density Altitude, True Air Speed, and a lot more.

 

And make sure you claim a precise figure.

250 euros (equivalent in GBP) for the cancellation under EC261

+

Food you had while waiting (produce receipts or statements)
+

If you don't live in London, hotel expenses, basic toiletries (produce receipts)

+
Transportation between airport and hotel, or home if you had to go to the airport twice (produce receipts)

...And come back to say how it went for you, so I'm not always the last person to reply to these posts 

[Nirkster]

Hello Kyosanto,

thanks for looking into this issue and providing me with the weather information. I send British Airways those information and they answered me with this:

 

I’ve had another look at your claim for compensation and I’ve taken time to make sure our response is accurate and up-to-date. Based on this, our decision hasn’t changed and the response you’ve received about the eligibility of your EU compensation claim are correct.

 

As your flight was cancelled due to adverse weather conditions, it means you’re not eligible for EU compensation.

 

So what are the next steps? Fill out a money claim?

[Kyosanto]

Hmmmm, very ballsy of them. 

 

I would send them one last email. Call the subject "Final warning prior to letter of claim" or similarly threatening.

 

Write something like this:

 

Please provide evidence that the flight route was affected by adverse weather conditions.

 

I have done due dilligence in researching the weather conditions on the affected route and dates, and have found that those were far from being excessively adverse - and personally believe that any professional pilot would laugh at you for claiming so.

 

If you are unable to provide me with evidence to the contrary, or if you do not respond to my request within 5 business days, I intend to initiate formal proceedings to obtain due compensation.

 

 

 

If you do need to take that to moneyclaim/SCC then need to ask someone else here for advice.

 

I got a feeling that BA might be using the late arrival of the aircraft from somewhere else as an excuse. They should not be able to as LHR is their hub and they would be expected to have the logistics to carry operations smoothly.

[whitelist]

"Please provide evidence that the flight route was affected by adverse weather conditions".

 

With any civil claim it is down to the plaintiff to prove their case, not the defendant.  BA is under no obligation to release that information

[Kyosanto]

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. @whitelist please refrain from posting in this thread when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

 

Quote

 

EC261 Article 5
3. An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

4. The burden of proof concerning the questions as to whether and when the passenger has been informed of the cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air carrier.

 

 

(bolding is mine)

 

The burden of proof is 100% with BA as per the law, and so far they have provided OP with absolutely nothing but thin air.
 

[whitelist]

Burden of Proof & Balance of Probabilities in Civil Litigation: Law Simplified

HALLELLIS.CO.UK

---

The Civil litigation burden of proof and the balance of probabilities. How courts decide facts on witness evidence:...

 

[Kyosanto]

Oh... please.... 

 

Quote

In civil litigation and criminal prosecutions, the burden of proof lies with the party asserting an allegation of fact. 

 

It is BA who alleges to OP that "adverse weather conditions" are a reason for them to not fulfill their obligations under EC261. The burden on proof is on them to demonstrate that allegation.

 

As per Art 5.3 they must prove that the adverse weather conditions were an extraordinary circumstance which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken

 

Spoiler alert: Light rain showers and low clouds are not an extraordinary circumstance in this country 

 

@Nirkster

Another important thing to mention is that even assuming bad weather was a valid reason to deny your claim (it isn't), then whilst you wouldn't be eligible for the 250 euros (which must be worth something like 500 pounds by now), you would still always be eligible for reimbursement of any reasonable expense that were incurred during the delay (food & drinks, transport, hotel, toiletries, etc.). Did you not attempt to claim for any of that?

[Grablicht]

I tried Airhelp and got this answer:

 

After carefully checking your data, our team discovered that your British Airways flight to Frankfurt doesn’t qualify for compensation. We’re really sorry it’s turned out this way.

Here's what happened:

The disruption was caused by bad conditions at the airport Safety is a top priority in air travel, so when the conditions do not allow the aircraft to follow the original flight plan safely, it may be diverted. These situations include: Sudden storms or gusts of wind Wintery conditions or poor visibility Air traffic control restrictions Airport is at capacity Because these types of events are outside of the airline’s control, they’re considered to be extraordinary circumstances, and airlines aren’t required to pay compensation for them.

 

 

Next step would be to submit a claim.

[whitelist]

Most civil contracts have the force majeure term inserted to limit liability when unforeseeable circumstances prevent fulfilling a contract.

Edited December 13, 2022 by whitelist

[Grablicht]

Thanks for the info but this only works if what BA is claiming (bad weather) is true. According to Kyosanto who provided the weather report for that day at that time for LHR airport there was no bad weather. For me they are just claiming lies so that they don't have to pay me.

 

[whitelist]

At the end of the day, whatever a person posts needs to be taken as token advice, even with good intentions.

 

Submitting a claim through the civil courts is not as easy as it sounds. Unlike criminal courts where the decision is on reasonable doubt, civil courts are on the balance of probability.

 

It is for the claimant to prove their case, not for the respondent to defend. You cannot use the courts for a phisshing expedition to prove your case. You submitted the issue to a claims company who has ruled against you,

 

But it is your decision if you wish to continue with civil action

Edited December 13, 2022 by whitelist

[Kyosanto]

Please ignore the porkies that a certain someone has been polluting this thread with, and let's focus on the facts here:

 

Fact: The law says that the burden of proof is on BA to prove their allegation that the weather conditions were bad TO THE POINT THAT IS EXCEPTIONAL AND COULD NOT BE FORESEEN. (EC/261, already quoted on this thread). I don't even know why we keep coming back to this.

 

Fact: A small claims court is not as hard as it sounds. This forum is designed in the specific purpose of helping you file your own claim and see it through and it is full of success stories. Don't be discouraged just because a 3rd party sollicitor company - which are known for not really giving a crap, as is well documented on these forums - turned you down.

 

Fact: I am not a professional pilot and this is a self help forum. I have given you the keys in how to look for METAR data and how to decode it. You are encouraged to dig more into it, double check my amateur analysis is correct, and that it will stand trial. You could ask on an avgeek forum for a better opinion than mine and I would very much encourage you to do so.

 

I do agree with my friend "I learned law by clicking on a website" that the best we can give you here is advice... and maybe a couple of facts   ... but in the end the decision is up to you. 

But I agree with your gut feeling. BA is lying to you. You have evidence that no other flights were cancelled that day right?

 

 

 

 

[Grablicht]

Kysanto I've already won against EVRi in SC court with the help of this forum. The whole afternoon I saw planes flying and the weather was fine. I remember because it was the exact same hour the queen died. 

 

BA already paid me this year because of a cancelled flight in spring..they don''t want to pay me again and tomorrow I'm flying BA again.

 

I will start the process

[Manxman in exile]

6 hours ago, whitelist said:

At the end of the day, whatever a person posts needs to be taken as token advice, even with good intentions.

 

... Submitting a claim through the civil courts is not as easy as it sounds. Unlike criminal courts where the decision is on reasonable doubt, civil courts are on the balance of probability.

 

It is for the claimant to prove their case, not for the respondent to defend. You cannot use the courts for a phisshing expedition to prove your case. You submitted the issue to a claims company who has ruled against you,

 

But it is your decision if you wish to continue with civil action

 

I know nothing of making a claim for cancelled flights and I don't know if @Kyosanto is right when he says that EC261 is still enforced by UK courts and that the balance of proof is on the airline .

 

But even if @Kyosanto is wrong, doesn't the claimant here satisfy the initial burden of proof by providing the archived weather information* given by @Kyosanto in #7, and the burden of proof then switches to the airline to show that the claimant's evidence as to the weather was wrong?

 

Isn't that how the adversarial system works?  The plaintiff makes a claim based on what they say the weather conditions were like on the day (and they back that claim up by reference to independent weather data as in #7).  Then it's up to the defendant to show that the plaintiff is wrong.  If the airline can't produce evidence to demonstrate that the plaintiff's evidenced claims about the weather are wrong, doesn't the airline lose?  If they can't provide evidence that the weather was so unusually bad that the flight had to be cancelled, the only evidence in front of the court is that from the plaintiff showing the weather was ok and the flight should not have been cancelled.  If that is the only evidence, how would a court find against the plaintiff?

 

*I'm making no comment here as to the reliability of the info supplied by @Kyosanto in #7 - I've no idea what it proves as I know absolutely nothing about flying or airlines.  I'm merely commenting on @whitelist's assertion that the whole burden of proof lies on the claimant and that the airline need demonstrate nothing.  

 

I also have no idea what the weather was like on the day or if BA are right or wrong.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[Kyosanto]

Ahh wait, I didn't realize we have 2 posters. Are @Grablicht and @Nirkster the same person?

[Grablicht]

  

20 minutes ago, Kyosanto said:

Ahh wait, I didn't realize we have 2 posters. Are @Grablicht and @Nirkster the same person?

 

 

Ah sorry my bad Kyosanto. Didn't realise I had 2 different accounts

[dx100uk]

7 minutes ago, Grablicht said:

  Ah sorry my bad Kyosanto. Didn't realise I had 2 different accounts

which one do you wan to keep please?

we will merge then to one name

 

dx

 

[Grablicht]

Nirkster,

thanks mod and sorry for the confusion

[Kyosanto]

There are multiple accounts of EC/261 claims still being treated in the UK, but for those still in doubt, UK gov has its own version of the law online, which is still branded as "latest". This seems to strongly hint the law is indeed still applicable. It has even been adapted after Brexit to separate the UK and the Community, in the details of the text.
 

Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, and repealing Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 (Text with EEA relevance)

WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK

---

Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 establishing common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of...

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Kyosanto