CEL 2017 ANPR PCN PAPLOC Now Claimform - Burger King, West Forest Gate, Wokingham, RG40 2AT *** Claim Discontinued***

[BStealth]

Thanks for all your help so far. 

 

I've completed the MCOL acknowledgement and I've prepared the CPR 31.14 Request, which I will post via recorded deliver tomorrow.

 

So my fundamentals for my defense are that I overstayed by 13minutes whilst I was feeding my daughter in the BurgerKing of which this CEL carpark is solely used for. Their is no planning permission to the councils knowledge and the signature is not clear. Also, the costs incurred are ludacris.

 

Is there any links which can help me build this defense?

 

Should I wait to submit defense or get it in early?

[FTMDave]

I've reread the thread and so far we have

   - no planning permission for signs

   - pants signage, bent and obscured by trees (when you went back there, did you get photos?  If so, please upload them)

   - an overstay of 2 minutes and 57 seconds, given the 10 minute minimum grace period: if 10 minutes is fine for anyone, I think 13 minutes is OK when you have young children

   - the NTK sent out after eight months, slightly longer than the 14 days to create keeper liability (can you please redact this of your details, and upload?)

   - unlikely the planning permission for the car park gave a 1-hour limit (as you're so hot on planning permission, another one to look up)

   - £82 Unicorn Food Tax.

 

No harm in drafting a defence now, although you have plenty of time.  It only needs to be generic and a few lines.  If you look in any thread with "claimform" in the title, there will be examples you can tweak.

 

 

[dx100uk]

No need for recorded.

1st class with free proof of posting from any po counter will do.

they dont respond anyway

 

Pcn claimform

Use our search.

 

DX

 

[brassnecked]

They are not on a good ground there, and the Unicorn feed tax added to a claim against keeper even if POFA satisfied and it rarely is cannot be demanded from the keeper, add in they have no course of action as the Trade Bodies stipulate 10 minutes grace. period

[BStealth]

Thanks for all your consistent help so far. You must be busy with people asking for help and as so I am grateful.

 

So to confirm my only two tasks are:
1. Send the CPR13.41 request via post

2. Prepare and upload defence.

 

Do I have to attend the court hearing in person/via zoom or is it decided behind closed doors?

[dx100uk]

twill be phone or video zoom like thingy. IF IF it gets that far...

 

defence due by 4pm 12th feb regardless to CPR 31:14 or not!!

 

our usual 3 - 5 line generic defence in most PCN claimform threads here already  - use our search top right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BStealth]

Defence TODAY? Claim form is dated 9th feb.

Do I not have 28 days to submit my defence being 9th March? 

[dx100uk]

hehe obv not.

yes march..

[BStealth]

Hello, is this a good start?

 

1. It is admitted that Defendant is the recorded keeper of [motor vehicle].

 

2. It is denied that the Claimant has complied with Schedule 4, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012; see paragraph 5.1a. The car park signs are owned by Civil Enforcement Limited. Under CPR 31.14 I have requested evidence of the claimants contract between Civil Enforcement Limited and the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and make claims in their own name, and proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007.

 

3. It is denied that the Claimant entered a contract with the Defendant. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was not contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the carpark is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. The proper Claimant is the landowner.

 

4. The terms of the Claimant's signage are displayed in a font which is too small to be read, in poor condition and is in such a position of easy vehicle obstruction. In addition to this anyone attempting to read the tiny font at dusk would not be able to due to being placed in a poorly lit area. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

 

5. After investigation by the local borough council, there was no identified planning permission for Civil Enforcement Limited or any past business or individual for any erection of signage or ANPR usage of which Civil Enforcement Limited are relying on.

 

6. According to the Parking Act 2019 private car parks must give motorists a 10-minute grace period. As this car park solely server Burger King, I was a paying customer who overstayed by 2 minutes 57 seconds I would argue that this overstay should be extended in good will.

 

 

4. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all."

 

[FTMDave]

Well done on all the research you've done, which will be vital when you draw up a Witness Statement further down the line (if the fleecers don't give up first) - but what you have drafted is not for now.

 

We have a case at the moment where the motorist drew up a long list of defence points - so the fleecers' solicitor knew what he/she was going to say and therefore prepared to counter every point.  Keep the other side guessing!

 

You only need a few lines.  For example, simply saying "It is denied that the Claimant entered into a contract with the Defendant" covers all of the reasons why no contract was formed - non-use of POFA, carp signage, no planning permission, no locus standi, etc.  Points 2, 4, 5 & 6 need to go.

[brassnecked]

Yes slim it down to 3 main points max that can be fleshed out later Less is More at this stage, don't give them stuff they can try to rebut with waffle in a WS.

[BStealth]

Ok, thanks!! shall i submit last minute as well?

[FTMDave]

I wouldn't submit at the very last minute as MCOL can play up, plus it's not like a Witness Statement where you're trying to outguess the fleecers.  Submit it at the start of March, which also gives the fleecers the chance to reply to the CPR request and for other regulars to comment.

 

How about -

 

 

1  The Defendant is the recorded keeper of [motor vehicle].

 

2.  The Claimant was not contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner.  Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim.  The proper Claimant is the landowner.

3.  In any case it is denied that the Claimant entered into a contract with the Defendant.

 

 

4. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety.  It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

[BStealth]

Thank you so much. I'll submit this tomorrow. I also visited the location yesterday, its 100 miles from my home. They've changed the signage, there's now a lot more small signs. There is an erected sign on entrance, damaged and the ANPR is actually fixed to the side of the burger king building.

[lookinforinfo]

Try to remember what the signs were like when you were ticketed. CEL are supposed to show the signage existing when you were there not the current signs. When signage is changed it is sometimes after they have lost in Court as a result of poor signage. Also if they state in their WS that the signs were as at the time of your incident, that calls into question the veracity of their WS as well as being perjurious. 

[BStealth]

Defense submitted  

[BStealth]

Have received a letter from the tribunal service advising that my defence has been submitted to the claimant and more info will be provided if they wish to pursue. 

[dx100uk]

you mean they have 28 days to do something else it gets autostayed

 

dx

 

[BStealth]

Quite correct...

Claim Status

A claim was issued against you on 09/02/2021

Your acknowledgment of service was submitted on 10/02/2021 at 14:39:35

Your acknowledgment of service was received on 10/02/2021 at 16:05:21

Your defence was submitted on 01/03/2021 at 09:53:49

Your defence was received on 01/03/2021 at 12:05:48

Still haven't heard anything as of yet. 

[brassnecked]

Keep all evidence safe in case they decide to lift any Stay.

[BStealth]

Would it be a false assumption to assume that as 28 days have passed and MCOL is not stating anything else then they did not pursue the claim? Would MCOL not state that or update accordingly? Are you able to kindly explain how long they have to lift a stay and what's involved for them?

 

Actually just received a response to the CPR13.41 request.

24.03.21

We refer to your recent correspondence.

 

The agreement with our client is confidential, business sensitive document and we are not under any obligation to disclose it. We have full and valid legal authority to manage and enforce the terms and conditions of parking at this cr park and will adduce evidence of the same should the matter proceed to a claim in the small claims court.

[dx100uk]

i would not assume the claim is autostayed, it's not +28 plus there are always delays esp with covid.

should nothing further be entered into MCOL then they have 6yrs to lift the stay.

simply don't ever move without informing the court.

[BStealth]

Ok, dated 7/4/21 - Notice of proposed allocation to the small claims track

 

- You must by 26th april 21 complete the small claims directions questionnaire and file it with the court office. There is a questionnaire plus ask of mediation. Is this normal?

[AndyOrch]

 

[dx100uk]

3 copies

court

sols

your file

 

no to mediation

1 wit you

 

the rest is obv.

 

on the copy to CEL or their sols if they state one

do not give them email/sig/phone.