VCS ANPR 2015 PCN claimform - Berkeley Centre Sheffield S11 8PN ***Claim Discontinued***

[dx100uk]

well in all truth 10am - 4pm is the full 'time window' the case could be heard during.

 

there is no known start time typically for wall notice schedule for the days' cases for the morning session to begin.

 

The main issue being as the local court never knows what other urgent items might come up from the night before etc, those cases HAVE to be dealt with first.

once the schedule begins, their wall notice will tell you the order ...so you should be able to gauge when yours will be.

 

if you have a word with the clerks of the court, most now are quite happy to know (and encourage you to tell them) of any issues on the day and will help with them by having a word with the judge of the day (get you in first or say 1st after the set lunch period).  i've known some to say go away to a local cafe etc if you dont live local and will send you a text just before you are due there.

though it does depend upon the clerks and the courts.

 

[ericsbrother]

the courts knowthis is a rubbish claim hearing so wont allocate any tiem for it as they expect to slot it in at some point but if another case drags on then you may not get a hearing that day.

If that is the case you need to have a letter drafted to show your expenses for the day out and ask that the claimant be forced to pay then regardless. Nowthis may well be added to any order for a new hearing and VCS will by them be a good few quid down before they say a word. If that is agreed it shows that the judge has read the papers and your chances of success can be measured accordingly.

 

No letter though and you will get nothing.

commonly both sides will be told to swallow their costs as long as they are not too great but personally I would go for double or quits as a postponement that results in a loss for VCS will see them over £100 out of pocket on top of their costs for bringing the claim.

make them blink first

[anniebattlemum]

Thanks for all that.

We won't be requesting an adjournment and I'm now focussing on the main points for shooting down their statement.

VCS assert that they are only there to manage & enforce, and aren't responsible for the policy.

 

Their attachment Schedule 1 is actually the Parking Policy (a generic one) - it's signed by the leasing agents & includes the statement that wheel clamping may be used!

 

I assumed the policy and terms and conditions would be laid down by VCS - not that it makes any difference really, since VCS is responsible for the signs that advertise the terms and conditions.  So their position is they are simply implementing the landowner's terms and conditions and entering into a contract on behalf of the landowner, without any clear chain of authority, but they get to keep the proceeds. It's a confused picture.

 

Anyway the agent's' policy makes it clear that a minimum grace period of 10 minutes must apply, and the agreement (contract) signed with the agent, stipulates that VCS has to abide by the BPA Code of Practice. Both useful points.

[ericsbrother]

never assume anything, use this to show that there isnt actually a contract that is lawful in place to allow them to perform to that contract.

 

Likewise they arent members of the BPA and havent been for years so again tht should negate any contract with the public as they cant use the POPLA or Ombudsman Services Ltd as an ADR if you had decided to go down that route.

 

Yes, the chain of authority is a thing to plug at the beginning but you have stronger arguments about the actual contract offered to you, so dont be dismayed if the judge just decides without any evidence to support it that a contract and chain does exist.

 

Dot forget Excel ISNT VCS

[anniebattlemum]

Yes thanks for that Eric's brother.

 

In Para 9 of their statement, VCS say

" The Claimant submits that they have the authority to implement a parking scheme since 1 December 2010.

There has been no notice of termination (actually the agreement is only for 36 months!!) and the Claimant remains contracted to enforce parking to date."

 

This is rubbish as all the current signs are in the name of Excel, who have installed a pay and display machine and changed the rules. I will try to find out when they took over. 

 

Don't know if I mentioned, but I have now established that they have paid the court fee, so looks Simon is keen to continue. 

 

They do go on about their 2 tier appeals procedure, even though they're not members of the BPA.

The first layer is an 'Adjudicator' within their appeals department.

Second tier is the IAS: Independent Appeals Service, which they describe at length. 

 

I've just come across John's case with VCS in the same place from 2018 re an overstay in 2017.

The claimant's statement is word for word the same as mine, including the cases cited, and the photographs attached!!

 

It would be nice to question whether these signs were in place 3 years previously, but I don't have the proof.

It was a sad and an unfair outcome for John in Wrexham.

I hope our judge is more receptive!

[ericsbrother]

You are missing the point, their contract with LL says they use the BPA appeals system when they CANT because they arent members. read up on performance of contracts.

 

Now the obvious assumption is that the contract was never renewed and they are relying on inertia from the LL but this isnt good enough if you read about such things in other cases where the claim was chucked out ( parking prankster again) they cant offer you a deal which they cant perform and part of that is offering you a chance to follow the BPA code of Practice and appeals procedure.

 

The fact they are members of the IPC and they have their own appeals system is irrelevant,  you jave to be offered the BPA one according to their deal with the landlord

[anniebattlemum]

 

Thanks Eric's Brother. I take the point. 

[anniebattlemum]

Does anyone have any clue as yet as to what the  courts will do in the current Corona crisis?

It looks as though I'm to be incarcerated at home from this weekend and there's every chance nurseries and daycare centres will soon close. This means neither I nor my daughter will be able to attend the hearing on April 6th.

 

I'm thinking I should now write to the court and offer a hearing by video link.

It was indicated to me last time I tried to make contact with the courts, that I should write to them as soon as possible if I needed to request an adjournment.

 

It's not possible to speak to the local court direct, so I would be grateful for any guidance from those who may have some inside info. I'm reluctant to take a wait and see approach, since the government's position is that I'm not supposed to have any avoidable contact for the next 12 weeks.

 

don't think that's going to change before the hearing date. 

[FTMDave]

No idea, it depends on the government, but ...

 

Here in Italy the court system carried on for a short while, until lawyers and court staff were up in arms asking what was the difference between a crowded shopping centre and a crowded court building.  So all court cases have been stopped.

 

I expect things will change in the UK by the day now.  6 April is still a while off.

 

Probably best to prepare for the absolute worst (as you have been brilliantly doing!), that your daughter has to go on her own and get someone to look after her kids - but it's also possible that courts could be shut down by then.  As I say, things will probably be very, very different by 6 April.

[brassnecked]

Might be a very lean time for the PPC's if less people are parking, and they won't get much joy if army vehicles are being used and are getting double dipped by Simple Simon.  Just waiting for him to invoice a police car like UKPS did to Devon & Cornwall Police on a shout.

 

I can't seer how the County Courts can operate apart from undefended defaults going through Northampton. but as FTMDave says be prepared.

[anniebattlemum]

Thanks - yes, it's all changing very fast. 

[emmaTPockets]

guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-courts-and-tribunals-planning-and-preparation have you looked at this already @anniebattlemum

[FTMDave]

This is only a call for something, not a decision, and concerns criminal instead of civil courts - but I can't imagine things will stay as they are till 6 April

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51935320

 

[anniebattlemum]

No I hadn't seen that EmmaTPockets - thanks. It's suggesting we should contact the court then - I was afraid that they would say tough if your lay rep can't come, the Defendant still has to, but this is saying if those coming with you have to self isolate, you should contact the court, so I guess we'd better follow the advice. 

 

That's a very good article FTMDave - thanks for that. I can see that criminal cases must continue, so as to preserve law and order, but I agree there should be some re-thinking of civil cases, especially ones concerning a 7 minute parking overstay!!! Why put people at risk for such an absurd claim! 

[brassnecked]

That is a good point RichieBoy56, look for the duration in any contract they claim to have, it might just be the clincher if they cant prove it is still in force.

[dx100uk]

RB56 have you never started a thread?

this would be a good one to write up to help others?

?

 

dx

 

[anniebattlemum]

Yes that figures prominently in our comments re Contract and I remember someone on the forum saying the contract had been the clincher so it might have been you Richie Boy.

 

We also have a lot of points on contract but that fixed term one is a no brainer

- I expect they'll present some laughable creation from the agents trying to say there's been a renewal

- let's pray we get a judge like yours Richie Boy! 

[FTMDave]

Have you seen this excellent thread by Andyorch?

 

 

[anniebattlemum]

Thank you so much for that FTMDave. That is extremely helpful.

 

I've consulted my daughter and we will now ask for an adjournment as I'm socially isolated and she has no childcare, nor does she have the technology to take part in a remote hearing.

 

I was hoping the court would take the initiative so we wouldn't have to hassle them at this time,

but nothing has been forthcoming,

so we'll have to submit a request.

 

I would have liked to just get it over with, but these are crazy times.

If they agree to an adjournment, the challenge will then be to stay on top of it until matters settle down. 

[anniebattlemum]

Late Monday afternoon we mailed the attached letter to the court and my daughter also emailed it, as we were concerned that the hearing day was getting close.. On Tuesday, she received an acknowledgement and was told she'd get a response from the court within 5 days.

 

Today, Wednesday,  she received in the mail, a letter dated 23rd (so no connection with our letter) from VCS enclosing a Notice of Discontinuance!! My guess is that Simon realised that with thousands of people dying round the world in a global pandemic, it was unlikely that the courts would be sympathetic to a piddling claim for a 7 minute overstay.

 

It could be that the poor Paralegal took fright at our voluminous Defence statement and was scared of our final comment about claiming expenses! Maybe her deal means it gets deducted from salary! We'll never know unfortunately.

 

I would have relished the opportunity to let fly at them in a hearing and had lots of extra points I was working on, like the inability to perform to contract, but heyho, my daughter is delighted it has gone away, and I can now remove all the many files from my kitchen table.

 

It has been a great learning experience and I thank everyone on this site for coaching me and leading me to excellent reference material - I wouldn't have known where to start without your help. I'm very happy to support your site and encourage every other victim to fight the good fight. 

 

Keep safe everyone.

 

 

Letter re adjournment redacted (3).pdf

[honeybee13]

Brilliant, well done.

 

You need to remove the claim number from your pdf.

 

HB

[anniebattlemum]

Whoops - sorry!! Thanks for pointing that out Honeybee - I've deleted the letter now and it's history really, thanks to you guys!

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

simon running 

now that is RARE!!

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

And we've received a very kind donation from you – and I responded with an email. You may need to check your spam folder because Hotmail addresses often give us problems.  

[emmaTPockets]

Absolutely delighted for you @anniebattlemum. On a different group someone else posted a notice of discontinuance they had received. I genuinely think that the looming threat of a court case can not be good for anyone's mental health and stress levels in the best of times (no matter how well prepared you may be) and something as trivial as a 7 minute overstay totally pales into insignificance in the current pandemic crisis. I wish you and all your family well and please keep safe. Sending virtual hugs and high fives!!