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    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
    • pop up on the bulk court website detailed on the claimform. [if it is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time] . When you select ‘Register’, you will be taken to a screen titled ‘Sign in using Government Gateway’.  Choose ‘Create sign in details’ to register for the first time.  You will be asked to provide your name, email address, set a password and a memorable recovery word. You will be emailed your Government Gateway 12-digit User ID.  You should make a note of your memorable word, or password as these are not included in the email.<<**IMPORTANT**  then log in to the bulk court Website .  select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box. .  then using the details required from the claimform . defend all leave jurisdiction unticked  you DO NOT file a defence at this time [BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ] click thru to the end confirm and exit the website .get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim type your name ONLY no need to sign anything .you DO NOT await the return of paperwork. you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.
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UKPCM/gladstones Claimform - PCN operator pix - pensby Road **CLAIM DISCONTINUED**


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well they are advising you to act reasonably and proportionately but have NEVER done so themselves ( which is why they get so many costs orders against them).

If they were confident ehy would have sent you a proper PAP letter rether than a begging letter dressed up.

It is now up to UKPCM to cogitate and decide whetehr they want Gladstones to lose them some more money. They may gamble on a claim issue will get you to suddenly wet yourself and pay up. What normally happens is they dtop the matter when that doesnt work. It is an abuse of process but so far the MoJ havent come down on them

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what does my last post advise?

 

Ple4ase read things very carefully and make sure you understand exactly what is written and them you wont fall for the common trap of thinking their letter means something it doesnt actually say.

 

so to make it simple for you in this case.

 

gladstones are threatening you when they havent actually asked their client for instructions. therefore ignore them and see if the drips at UKPCM actually want to start a fight. Anything you say wont change that OTHER THAN to make it more likely if you say the wrong thing so let them make the next move, not answering wont change anything if th rentamouths are right.

Edited by honeybee13
Paras
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  • 7 months later...

I received a PCN on 14th March 2018. 

 

Eventually gladstones became involved and I wrote to them on 03 December 2018, following the advice of CAG. 

 

I did not receive a response until 03 May 2019 which opened:

'Thank you for your letter dated 03/12/18, the content of which has been noted.

We apologise for the delay in our response however, as no further action has been taken we trust you agree no prejudice has been suffered as a result'

it then went on to demand £160 within 30 days.

It contained a copy of the signage at the site.

An Aerial photo showing where the signs are located

Two pictures of my parked vehicle (which include dates and times  Pictures attached) I ignored it. 

 

I've now received a claim form from the county court business centre. 

I have attached it at the bottom so you can see the particulars of the claim. 

 

In order for us to help you we require the following information:-

 

Name of the Claimant ? UK Car Park Management 

claimants Solicitors: Gladstones

 

Date of issue – 17th July 2019

 

What is the claim for –

 

The driver of the vehicle parked in breach of the terms of parking stipulated on the signage (the contract) at 54 Pensby Road Wirral. ch60 7re on 14/3/2018 thus incurring the parking charge.  (the PCN)

 

tHE DRIVER OF THE VEHICLE AGREED TO pay the PCN WITHIN 28 DAYS of issue yet failed to do so.

 

The claimant claims the unpaid PCN from the defendant as driver/keeper  of the vehicle.

 

Despite demands being made, the defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability.

 

What is the value of the claim? £176.18, court fee £25 legal costs £50 Total amount £251.18

 

Has the claim been issued by the Private parking Company or was the PCN assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim ? The claim is issued by the claimants legal representatives - Gladstones. 

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? - yes

 

Interestingly,

It appears that UK PARKING MANAGEMENT NO LONGER MANAGE THE SITE  and in fact were instructed by a single business owner  who no longer trades there. ( there are several businesses along the stretch of road who back on to the area)

 

There is apparently some discussion from other business owners that the land was never actually theirs to enforce...…

I assume this is relevant in my defence? 

 

 

 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to UKPCM/gladstones Claimform - PCN operator pix - pensby Road

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.
.
 register as an individual
 note the long gateway number given
 then log in
.
 select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.
.
 then using the details required from the claimform
.
 defend all
 leave jurisdiction unticked.
 click thru to the end
 confirm and exit MCOL.
.
 get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors [if one is not listed send to the claimant]

no need to sign anything
.
you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.
you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform [1 in the count]
 

…………...

 

please put all of gladstones docs/pix in ONE multipage PDF

read upload

we don't need to see the Claimform

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Have done as advised on MCOL and used the template - made an error in my initial post as the claimant is UK car park management and not gladstones. I am instructed to send documents to gladstones though. 

Letter's in the post.

Worried about getting a CCJ....

Doc1.pdf

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correct as post 30.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Follow advice on here and you are unlikely to get a CCJ.  There is a saying on here about being Gladstoned, where the PPC loses the defendent wins, but Gladstones still get paid by the PPC, which followed Gladstone's duff advice.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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  • 3 weeks later...

nothing diff

just don't miss your defence filing date

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Read up on similar threads and a three line defence  fitted to your facts,  eg for a ficticious case   it may be round dodgy POC, absence of any contractural liability etc If POFA cannot be assumed keeper is driver.  Three line should  should be ok for now, you expand on it at WS stage, less is more at this stage.

We could do with some help from you.

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Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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defendants POC?

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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post 34 we can see your detail through the pen!

removed.

please read upload carefully!

 

a defendant doesn't file a poc!!

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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dont panic is my next bit of advice. Gladdys want you to feel pressured into settling before a hearing because they know their clinet's case isnt solid and certainly wont be well presented.

 

so lets make somehting clear, CPM only manage the space in front of a single building that has no clearly defined boundaries as to where their interest lies. So no lines indicating the boundaries of the land? No dropped kerb or lack of it for just that plaec and nowhere else along the front of the adjoining buildings?

 

you will need to get down there and photograph the site and its surrounds to show what cna and cant be seen.

 

Now my look on goggleyes makes me think it is a parade of shops with flats above and one fo the shops has allowed these bandits to act on their behalf. I would bet that the tenants dont have the authority to create such a contract so you might want to phone the estate agent and ask them who the owner of the building is and whther the curtillage is exclusive to the lock-up. Also get some pictures of the back of the place and its surrounds from various angles so yu can place a doubt as to whetehr your vehicle was actually parked for  ore than 10 minutes on that land without being on other property

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Thanks Eric's brother. 

Will get photos today.

In terms of my 3 line defence. 

Should it be something along the lines of:

 

No boundaries are indicated as to where parking is supposedly enforced.

Evidence submitted not clear - pictures do not show position of vehicle in relation to entire communal space.

The tenants of the building have no authority to create such a contract ( I will confirm this later today)

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no,  you get the facts first and then write defence but you will make it clear that no contract could be or was formed, you have no liability in this matter and therefore no cause for action against you.

the boundaries bit is for much much later.

 

Edited by ericsbrother
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I've been and taken further pictures of the site. Signs are displayed as indicated on the Photos provided by uk car park management, 

The new proprietor of the shop continues to engage uk car park management, but isn't the owner of the building or land.

Shall I contact the land registry to find out who actually owns the land, before I go down he no contract could be or was formed route.....

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I dont care if the signs are as they have put them in their paperwork, you show us your pictures and explain where exacty you were stading when yu took thern ad what defined boundaries there are to indicate their management of that particular grain of sand

 

the idea of getting more pictures id to show not only your perspective of things but to rubbish theirs ad not agree with them.

So put them up and we may be sending you back to take some more of the whole area, road markings, pavement etc

wise to know who does own the land as I suspect the whole block is owned by a single landlord and that meand the shop tenant certainly wont have the authority to get these banditd to tramp all over someone else's property

Edited by ericsbrother
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 Had to hide pics as car reg numbers visible in pic 1 Could you get a close up of the signs so we can zoom in  and read what they say without them pixellating please?

We could do with some help from you.

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Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Your photographs are not a lot of help. first we cannot read just about the only Notice you showed. We do need to be able to read the actual notices to see if they have any hope of winning in court. We also need a sight of the sign, if any, at the entrance as well as a photo of the payment meter if there is showing any terms or conditions. In addition, photos of signs that differ from other signs in the car park.

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