Pip tribunal hearing/advice **WON**

[reallymadwoman]

The only advice I've been able to find is to contact CAB for help.

 

It is usually recommended that you get professional help to challenge a tribunal decision.

[Bazooka Boo]

OK this is only the FTT yes??

 

You need leave to appeal to the UTT on the grounds that they erred in law now.

 

And you really do need to find a disability advisor to take this on and direct you.

 

I can't help but feel something is missing here, and with the best will in the world, you're going off half cocked and they're exploiting your lack of knowledge.

 

In a very very short space of time, you've gone through the initial interrogation, their refusal and magic wand that cures all ills, the MR, and then the FTT?

 

Like I said, it took me three years to go jump through all their hoops and then get to the UTT before a sucessful outcome.

 

What did the DJ state must happen at the tribunal?

I stronlgy doubt it said it should only be a paper shuffling exercise, and you didn't need to attend?

 

There is plenty of scope to fire this further up the chain, however, you need to find out ''exactly'' what documents they relied on to come to their decision, AND if they were part of your argument that the initial decision should be overturned, then you 'could' say they 'erred in law' as the evidence relied on was flawed.

 

Have you demanded a SAR?

 

Do you have the RoP (Record of proceedings) and SoR (Statement of reasons)?

[spitfire1964]

Hi BB and thanks for your valuable advice.

 

On the points you raised,, the hearing proceeded in my absence, as I was told the date for hearing was the 8th, it went ahead on the 7th. As I have already pointed out any notification confirming or a cheap way of dealing with matters, and me not being giving the right to put my case, came after the hearing, the notice arrived five days after te case was considered.

 

You mention trying to find out what evidence was considered, how do I obtain this information?

 

You mention requesting a SAR, could you please be more specific, and advice would could be achieved and what I should be looking out for to further prove these bullies wrong?

 

Am I write to assume that I can immediately request a RoP andSoR?

[Bazooka Boo]

IF, you've not got sight of ALL of the information/evidence they (DWP) used in coming to the decision, then you need to send them a SAR, which is free https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dwp-request-for-personal-information

 

Once you have that info, (40 calender days) then you can go through it and highlight all of the discrepancies within it to then mount a successful tribunal.

 

As you were not present at the tribunal, then they should send you the outcome of said tribunal, and any instructions if you feel that they erred in law at coming to that decision.

 

The SAR will be two, three, or four A4 envelopes stuffed full of all of your dealings with the DWP from day one.

 

AFAIK, and from what I can remember, you need to write to the judge and request a 'SoR' along with the 'RoP', which will show exactly what went on in the tribunal.

 

What you're after doing is to pick apart their argument and find the error in law to then proceed to ask to appeal to the UTT.

[spitfire1964]

Evening BB,

 

The only reference to evidence that I received was the medical assessment report or should I state the Jackanory fabricated medical assessment report from a two bob health professional, if that's what they claim to be, by the sounds of it the DWP have not even giving the basics, which is not surprising, should they have sent more?,please let me know.

 

I have this morning emailed and sent by registered post to the Tribunal in Cardiff a request for them to provide SoR and RoP, should I address this to the judge as well?

 

The tribunal have sent a DECISION NOTICE, is this what you are referring too in respect of the outcome?, the DECISION NOTICE concludes "Whilst the tribunal accepts Mr X has anxiety, depression and angina, the nature and extent of the resulting limitations are insufficient to score the required number of points and as a result Mr X does not qualify for either component of Personal Independence Payment.

I reaching its decision the tribunal placed particular reliance upon the evidence of the papers generally"..

 

* No mention of serious heart condition, just mentions angina which has recently been diagnosed, and no mention of PTSD, just mentioned anxiety and depression that I have suffered from for the last thirteen years but deemed unfit for work because of that condition.

Annoying when and according to this decision they have not considered heart condition and PTSD, but giving a lot of attention and evidently made their decision on the less but still serious disability conditions that I have.

[Bazooka Boo]

Yes they will always rely on what evidence suits them best, something which I had made crystal clear to the DJ at one of my tribunals, ''How can they refer to, and use my condition in 2007 then ignore an up to date diagnosis in 2013?''

 

They will cherry pick information to suit their needs, which is why you bring them to account, and demand ALL of the paperwork they used in reaching their decision, this way then you can see exactly what they have ignored and what they have used.

 

The Decision Notice is one piece of evidence, the SoR will tell you how they arrived at that decision, and what evidence they relied on, the RoP will tell you how the tribunal was conducted, (in your absence) and may only be two or three sentences which the panel will have signed.

 

Try and relax, you have a month from the date of the DN to appeal, which can be delayed under certain circumstances, ie you are waiting for the SAR to land on your doormat, so you can find out where they erred in law so you can mount a successful challenge in the UTT.

 

Send them the SAR, recorded delivery, signed for or whatever, just send it but ensure you have ev idence you sent it.

 

Then try and find someone who deals with these tribunals, as they will be able to help you quicker, and will be able to direct you as to what it is you need.

 

Is your DR onside?

[spitfire1964]

Yes DR is onside, has since being shoved on UC giving a certificate giving another mental condition to sign me off for three months, to add to the other medical reasons that have been assessed and documented by proper medical people and specialist as opposed to someone trained in bones and ligaments ( HCP) paid on the bonus of taking the most vulnerable off the benefits system by telling porkies as to profit.

 

Just think the whole process and the way disabled people are being targeted and treated as vile, I'm trying not to get angry and I wont get angry because I could not treat people in this way, and I need to remind myself of that, still not right though Bazooka Boo.

 

I will request all the evidence that was used, trust me.

[spitfire1964]

It would appear and on the evidence of the email corrospodence that my witness statement and my wifes witness statement were not considered, there is no compulsory acknowledgement OF BOTH EMALS with statements when sent, but when the same emails were sent yesterday, they were acknowledge which seems odd and would suggest that my corrosponce only a few days before the hearing were being blocked or more importantly ignored by the Tribunal, how nice of them to go to all that trouble.

[Bazooka Boo]

Need to try and stay focused SF, as emotional and criminal it is, we have to play them at their own game, fight them with their own rules, exposing them and humiliating them in the best way possible.

 

Highlighting just how Dickensian they really are.

 

Use your time wisely, research as much as possible, including the HCP, what qualifications they have, any expertise they may or may not have to assess someone with your particular needs/issues/disability, if they are a bona fide GP, complaining to the GMC.

 

Lodge a formal complaint with ATOS regarding their flawed assessment system, and the fake HCP they use to hit the targets they have been given.

 

All the time, copy in your local MP, regardless whether they care or not, it needs to be hammered home to them all, that if they were to treat a dog like this, they'd be put in prison.

 

Keep a diary of events, collate names, letters, info, anything and everything prepare to be in it for the long haul, like I say, three miserable dark years it took me, then another 18 months to get the Independent Case Examiner (ICE) to uphold my complaint, and award me £100 compo from the DWP.

 

Not a massive amount by any stretch, but it was a win, and the next time your name crosses their desks, they'll know that they need to be absolutely water tight and 100% accurate, or you'll nail em to the floor!

[honeybee13]

How are you getting on with finding someone to help you, spitfire?

 

HB

[spitfire1964]

Good afternoon BB, and thanks for your advice.

 

I have already lodge a complaint with ATOS and how the so-called Health Poffessional that they employed lied through his back teeth and highlighted the time it took for him to complete the assessment.

 

Atos being Atos, as with all the dummies working together to harm the most vulnerable and cut from the same cloth abused their own complaints procedure, by not following all the stages of the complaints procedure and went from stage 1 to making a decision that covered the assessor in glory, in otherwords they superseded their own complaints procedure to reach this corrupt decision that the physiotherapist assessor wet behind the ears, was not only qualified but also an expert on heart conditions and PTSD and in awarding me 0 points.

 

I did involve my MP who keeps reminding me that he sits on the select committee which deals with the DWP and disputes, he advised me and after taking advice from ATOS to take it to the next level of complaint but I'm not prepared nor do I think that I should take this route as this is allowing ATOS and the MP who is basically acting like a glove puppet an outlet for ATOS not to follow their procedures, why should they act or be allowed to act any different is beyond belief.

 

They and the MP for Southampton Itchen make the rules up if and when it suits them.

 

How are you getting on with finding someone to help you, spitfire?

 

HB

Good afternoon HB.

 

I had a meeting with a charity called SARC which is based in Southampton and who deal with this type of problem and offer representation at Tribunals and they have advised me to have the decision set-aside as it would be in the interest of justice, because of the hearing proceeding without me being in attendance.

 

This was after I had explained that the correct notification was only giving after the hearing went ahead.

[honeybee13]

Their website reads well. Are they going to represent you?

 

HB

[spitfire1964]

They have indicated that they will help me but in the interim I need to make application for previous decision to be set-aside and on the provision that it would be in the interest of justice to do so, CAB have also come to the same conclusion so that's why I am doing HB.

As you can imaging they are flooded with people wanting advice so I am now on their list and just hope they can find someone there to help me if and when it goes before a hearing again.

[Bazooka Boo]

ATrOciouS must follow their own complaints guidelines, IF they don't, and are attempting to circumnavigate your right to complain, then YOU raise the complaint to THEIR next level.

 

This gives you an idea of how to fight them; https://www.scribd.com/document/97651322/Using-the-Atos-Complaints-Procedure

 

If your MP says to complain in a particular fashion, then IMO do so, but all the time, making him aware that it is outside of this departments complaints guidelines.

 

Don't stop complaining, and keep copies of their mistakes, because you might need to take this all the way to the ICE, and even the P&HSO... https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/making-complaint/complain-us-getting-started/complaint-forms

[spitfire1964]

Evening BB,

 

I have kept all the email correspondence that has been communicated in respect of my complaint against the assessor, and what can be drawn from that evidence or the lack investigating my complaint is clear.

 

So I will take it further, if ATOS do not want to compile a full complaint and the procedure that they have in house, it will just show up the chain how unprofessional and how profit driven these sad people are and at the expense of the sick and the disabled, evil people, ATOS and DWP.

 

My MP knows that ATOS have ignored their complaints procedure and as you rightly put it, circumnavigate any right that I had to complain and he has suggested ICE which I will now forward my complaint onto, any advice or hints how to approach and consider my complaint would be appreciated.

 

The Complaints procedure and form, is it ATOS that I am complaining against or the DWP BB, thanks

[spitfire1964]

Update, my application to have previous order awarded in favour of DWP and loss of my appeal, has been set-aside, after my application and on the grounds that it would be in the interest of justice, to set-aside was granted this afternoon.

 

Some positive news and a sense of justice, part achieved.

[Bazooka Boo]

Excellent WELL DONE!!

 

It's a start definitely.

 

Have they advised on a new hearing/assessment date?

 

Are they telling the FTT to reconvene AND use different tribunal panel? (Which should be the case)

 

What you 'might' find is that the DWP will string it out to the enth degree, hack the DJ off, who will tell them that they are out of time, and to reinstate the award from the date of your last tribunal, then you will get a nice little bit of backpay.

 

BUT, continue with the complaints, and fire it off to the ICE, https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/independent-case-examiner

 

When it lands on their mat, they will get in touch with the DWP/JCP and find out how far down their complaints procedure you are, IF you've not exhausted their complaints procedure, then they (DWP/JCP) will write to you and look into your complaint, then when they fail at rectifying it, you can escalate it to ICE.

 

So it is the DWP you are complaining about, ATrOciouS works for them, they (DWP) are ultimately responsible for their actions, they have no wriggle room, regardless of what they might say!

[spitfire1964]

Evening BB,

 

The notification about the setting aside was and according to the admistration in Cardiff today, the operator said that the decision had been set-aside and a notice to that effect was being sent this afternoon.

 

What the judge has added to that will not be known until that notice comes through either tomorrow or Saturday, I will let you know.

 

I wrote to ATOS today and copied my MP in advising them that because they had breached their own complaints procedure I had no alternative but to seek an alternative avenue which will hopefully deal with my complaint based on facts, and not fiction, thanks for confirming that the DWP would be the subject I can now get this sent of to ICE and have it on their doormat by Monday morning.

 

I also reminded ATOS that I made a formal complaint against the assessor to the Health Care Proffesional Council in March, who and after considering my concerns felt it was justified to look into my complaint.

 

For this to proceed ATOS and on my request would have to either confirm or deny the same assessor had been complained about before before they could investigate, as this was part of the protocol HCPC needed to adopt, I asked the question ATOS stood silent.

 

I have therefore giving them seven days in which to comply with what the HCPC or those that look into these professional health workers who are profiting from being not only remotely unqualified to adjudge someone health condition but lining their pockets and at the expense of the most vulnerable of people, in the process which is perverse and crude.

 

Whether they oblige or act like they and the DWP act and ignore as a means of being accountable for their action remains to be seen, it will be another boxed ticked Bazooka Boo, and that's all that matters at the moment mate.

[spitfire1964]

Received notification via post this morning, which indicates Rule 37 has been used and the decision of the Tribunal issued on o7/08/17 is set aside.

 

Further directions include the previous panel and Judge are excluded from further involvement in the appeal

 

Reference has also been made by the Duty Judge as to why the clerk attempted to contact the Appellant on an old telephone number rather than the one on the Tribunals database.

 

I have now invited the Clerk to explain his reasons.

 

As this order has been set-aside is the Judge who dealt with that hearing still under an obligation to give the reasons and to provide proof of hearing? thanks

[Bazooka Boo]

AFAIK, the previous judgement/hearing is now null & void, so it's like it never took place, the SoR and RoP 'should' be available in the SAR.

 

However, the next tribunal will most likely lapse, and you technically win by default, with payments reinstated and a backpay, just in time for Xmas!!

 

Sit tight and await their next move, and ensure you have all of your arguments in a folder/collated, so IF they do decide to attempt to rely on their lies and boot you off social security, you can win your case.

[spitfire1964]

Good Afternoon BB, and thanks for your reply, as always appreciated.

 

I have already requested SAR, and rather than giving another window of 40 days I am minded to get this evidence SoR, RoP sooner rather than later as evidence or at least what evidence the DWP relied upon which was obviously considered by the Tribunal can be established and in anticipation of a fresh hearing.

 

Whilst I am not suggesting the hearing was not conducted fairly, giving the flaws and the fact that in theory because the Tribunal did not follow the correct procedures of notification until after the event and part reason why the judgement was set-aside I honestly feel that it would only be correct and proper to establish what went on that day.

[Bazooka Boo]

Most certainly!

 

Your SAR will contain everything the DWP has from the first day of dealing with you many moons ago, so it will contain the SoR and RoP.

[spitfire1964]

New hearing date has been set for the second week of September.

[Bazooka Boo]

Excellent!

[spitfire1964]

Excellent!

 

Trying to get SARC to represent at hearing, but they are fully booked.

 

Do I go it alone or try and get a date which fits in with representation being made, what do you think?