The European Union.....In or Out?

[tobyjugg2]

apparently spain has chipped in with a 'threat' re gibralter. the more these politicking 'threats' come in, the more its an out vote....

 

Actually its the British Gibraltan Chief Minister of Gibraltar Fabien Picardo that has raised the 'threat' of Spain 'Pouncing', the Spanish have said they will be talking about Gibraltar the day after the Brexit vote - well they talk about Gibralter every day.

 

Spain should worry more about the independence movement in the thoroughly beautiful and wealthy Catalan region.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/10/catalan-independence-back-on-track-as-new-leader-is-sworn-in

 

More Cameron dirty tricks and fear mongering I think.

 

At the start of this I was probably 60% leaning toward an in vote, but as it goes on I am currently 80% toward an out vote.

 

In my opinion

The first few years may be awkward, and we may need (please please please) to move away from reliance (sic) on the Financial sector

 

Multiple decisions made recently by Germany broadly in the face of the rest of the EU seem insanity to me

 

Big banks who pay damn little to the UK and ass a lot of risk may leave, but if as should be, they will then be charged for operating here, then they will have to pay in or there will be opportunities for those mostly treasured lost things like building societies to come back - and hopefully protected like the undeserving multi-national banks are now.

 

Migration will be better out

 

Trade will be a mix of better and worse, with worse being mainly for the multi-nationals who take far more from our society than they put in - sod em.

 

Prices may rise some, but society has a good chance of being better

 

I dont give too much of a damn about the stupid bulb, kettle and hoover arguments, the real important big stuff is lining up in the out camp for me.

[san_d]

The population of this country were not told in 1975 what the result of joining the Common Market (it was for trade) would be, they were lied to and kept in the dark. Just like the country is today by Cameron and his cronies.

An internal government memorandum said;

 

“I enclose a draft on sovereignty…We are rather worried about the impact on Parliamentary opinion…the fact of the primacy of community legislation cannot be disguised. But I feel that there is a case for omitting it altogether.”

 

A British Foreign Office paper is quite explicit;

“Community law is required to take precedence over domestic law: i.e. if a Community law conflicts with a statute, it is the statute which has to give way….the community system requires that such Community Law as applies directly as law in this country should by virtue of its own legal force as law in this country prevail over conflicting national legislation.”

(FCO 30/1048, National Archives)

 

So when, in the October 1974 General Election, Harold Wilson’s Labour Party manifesto included a pledge to renegotiate terms for Britain’s membership and then hold a referendum, (now were have I heard that before) the loss of sovereignty was an issue about which not merely the entire ‘yes’ campaign wanted to keep quit but also the Government itself. (we could be talking about this referendum)

 

The population of this country could have taken the time to read the EEC treaty before relying on being told what to do by their betters.

[buckthorn]

The population of this country could have taken the time to read the EEC treaty before relying on being told what to do by their betters.

 

What a sanctimonious/patronising statement, I suppose you read every bit of literature published at the time????

most of what we know now was not available at the time, as the government of the day did not want the general public to know what they were signing up for.

Edited March 10, 2016 by buckthorn
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[san_d]

What a sanctimonious/patronising statement, I suppose you read every bit of literature published at the time????

most of what we know now was not available at the time, as the government of the day did not want the general public to know what they were signing up for.

It is the duty of a good citizen to be informed of the laws they are voting about. No excuses!

[unclebulgaria67]

It is the duty of a good citizen to be informed of the laws they are voting about. No excuses!

 

I bet there were discussions in the media at the time. I cannot believe that journalists like Robin Day did not ask questions about the future direction of travel, with the EEC being more than a simple free trade area.

 

This whole Brexit debate sums up politics really. It is a game of spin, trying to convince sheep which pasture they want to graze on. Most people who vote in June won't have a clue what the consequence of their vote is, in terms if how it affects their families. Personally, on the basis of risk, i would vote to remain, as the uncertainty Brexit will create, could cause economic problems, which people had not thought of.

[Old Cogger]

voted in 1st time & will this time = this all is a pointless exercise, some of us remember the late 40s/50s/60, always problems, not much food , lack of monies, and as now MPs out for self gain so called legally!

doing without meals to feed the children and hope they leave a bit for us, FACT! not fiction..

[unclebulgaria67]

voted in 1st time & will this time = this all is a pointless exercise, some of us remember the late 40s/50s/60, always problems, not much food , lack of monies, and as now MPs out for self gain so called legally!

doing without meals to feed the children and hope they leave a bit for us, FACT! not fiction..

 

That is exactly what could happen after Brexit, if right wing politicians see it as an opportunity to remove various rights people have now. E.g workers rights, human rights. I think some extremely wealthy people see it as a chance to turn the UK into a tax haven, with UK Banks having less scrutiny than is required at the moment. If they think that either the US government or European countries would allow that to happen without consequences, they are a bit deluded.

[Conniff]

That is exactly what could happen after Brexit, if right wing politicians see it as an opportunity to remove various rights people have now. E.g workers rights, human rights. I think some extremely wealthy people see it as a chance to turn the UK into a tax haven, with UK Banks having less scrutiny than is required at the moment. If they think that either the US government or European countries would allow that to happen without consequences, they are a bit deluded.

 

Where do you iners continually get this rubbish about losing rights, why would any rights be cut, scrapping working protection and human rights ?

[tobyjugg2]

That is exactly what could happen after Brexit, if right wing politicians see it as an opportunity to remove various rights people have now. E.g workers rights, human rights. I think some extremely wealthy people see it as a chance to turn the UK into a tax haven, with UK Banks having less scrutiny than is required at the moment. If they think that either the US government or European countries would allow that to happen without consequences, they are a bit deluded.

 

That is exactly the problem with brexit.

and if Scotland secedes, it would be even worse.

 

and when you really think about it - its because of who the majority of us who vote - vote for.

 

 

 

If we used our votes better, and voted for better people, brexit would be far less of an issue.

[Conniff]

That is exactly the problem with brexit.

and if Scotland secedes, it would be even worse.

 

and when you really think about it - its because of who the majority of us who vote - vote for.

 

 

 

If we used our votes better, and voted for better people, brexit would be far less of an issue.

 

This is all 'your' opinion, if that is really how it will be, can you please link to the proof that show this 'will' happen ??

[unclebulgaria67]

Where do you iners continually get this rubbish about losing rights, why would any rights be cut, scrapping working protection and human rights ?

 

Some on the Brexit side have already said they want to see current UK citizen rights reduced. E.g Chris Grayling, IDS.

 

They don't like some of the social chapter requirements and don't like European Human Rights being able to overide what is decided in the UK.

 

The EU is more socialist in outlook than many right wing politicians are comfortable with. There is a feeling within certain parties that the UK is too restricted by 'rights' and they prefer to strip a lot of these, so employers can include contract terms which were previously not allowed. If the Tories had a majority from 2020, which is likely with Corbyn around, you will see them gradually withdrawing legislation that they consider restricts freedom by business to make decisions right for them.

[tobyjugg2]

and even the In campaigners are now more clearly saying that they believe there is no will to change Camerons 'reformation' 'deal' with the EU, not that they can't.

 

as seen on even the daily politics show today

[tobyjugg2]

The EU is more socialist in outlook than many right wing politicians are comfortable with. There is a feeling within certain parties that the UK is too restricted by 'rights' and they prefer to strip a lot of these, so employers can include contract terms which were previously not allowed. If the Tories had a majority from 2020, which is likely with Corbyn around, you will see them gradually withdrawing legislation that they consider restricts freedom by business to make decisions right for them.

 

I think this is true whichever party gains power in the UK, even Labour under Corbyn - even if it was through Labours traditional 'lack of will' to overturn Tory changes if they see some benefit to be had from leaving and using it while whinging about Tory changes.

 

It seems to me that:

 

If controlling immigration is your driving motivation - vote Out

 

If workers and peoples rights are your prime motivation - vote In

 

If its that National lawmakers should have priority - vote out, and accept that rights MAY well be reduced.

 

Most other things are really swings and roundabouts and if anyone actually knows what the real result will be (if there would be any major overall gains or losses), they are hiding it well - including whether businesses are better in or out.

[unclebulgaria67]

I think people have to be honest and say what in particular they don't like about the EU.

 

In my opinion, immigration is too complex an issue to blame the EU. You ask people in Germany, Spain etc what their concerns are and it will be immigration. In the US Presidential debate immigration is also a big issue. Even Mexicans with US citizenship have backed Trump in trying to keep other Mexicans out of the US.

 

I suspect in China they have an issue in some parts with cheap migrant labour from country areas migrating to cities to compete for jobs, keeping wages down.

 

Whether the UK is part of the EU or not, population numbers will increase and as jobs get replaced by technology, there will be issues. Voting for Brexit ls likely to lead to a large influx of people before the exit date. There has already been an increase since the referendum date was set. Staying in the EU means that people have more freedom of movement and they can go to live in other countries.

[citizenB]

I think people have to be honest and say what in particular they don't like about the EU.

 

In my opinion, immigration is too complex an issue to blame the EU. You ask people in Germany, Spain etc what their concerns are and it will be immigration. In the US Presidential debate immigration is also a big issue. Even Mexicans with US citizenship have backed Trump in trying to keep other Mexicans out of the US.

 

I suspect in China they have an issue in some parts with cheap migrant labour from country areas migrating to cities to compete for jobs, keeping wages down.

 

Whether the UK is part of the EU or not, population numbers will increase and as jobs get replaced by technology, there will be issues. Voting for Brexit ls likely to lead to a large influx of people before the exit date. There has already been an increase since the referendum date was set. Staying in the EU means that people have more freedom of movement and they can go to live in other countries.

 

Immigration will always be blamed when the economy has tanked.. remember how Hitler came to power !

 

You have big business employing in other countries - eg call centres

zero hour contracts and cheap immigrant labour.

 

Government and big business claiming that employees in this country are too lazy ! When all business want is cheap labour that they can get shot of at a moments notice.

 

Aside from that, I find it quite strange that government say.. "Brussels/EU" say we must do this or that - that Brussels/EU is responsible for the excessive red tape - so why are government so keen to keep us IN ?

[Conniff]

and even the In campaigners are now more clearly saying that they believe there is no will to change Camerons 'reformation' 'deal' with the EU, not that they can't.

 

as seen on even the daily politics show today

 

But he hasn't got any deals just bullshxx

[buckthorn]

It is the duty of a good citizen to be informed of the laws they are voting about. No excuses!

give me a link to the relevant information, that would have kept the general public informed.

[tobyjugg2]

But he hasn't got any deals just bullshxx

 

Not entirely correct - protection from EU rules for 'the city' does not require any 'OK' from the EU to enact unlike the red card etc, which would still require an EU 'OK' even if that part of the 'renegotiation' was passed by the EU

 

Which makes Boris's stance seem even more incongruous.

[Conniff]

So that;'s not a deal then if it can already be enacted

 

Some one - and you are a good candidate - spell out exactly what deal he has got ??

[citizenB]

Look North is in Rotterdam and quite a few of the Dutch are not happy with the EU either

 

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/02/dutch-also-want-a-eu-membership-referendum-poll-shows/

 

 

A majority of people in the Netherlands want a referendum to be held on Dutch membership of the EU similar to the one taking place in Britain in June, according to a new poll by Maurice de Hond. In his weekly survey of Dutch political opinion, De Hond found 53% support a referendum in the Netherlands, while 44% are opposed. If there were a vote, 44% would vote to stay in the EU and 43% against.

 

 

 

And of course Britain will get the blame for stirring things up within the EU

 

 

The Netherlands is holding a referendum on the EU’s treaty with Ukraine on April 6. That is widely being seen as a test of public support for the European Union but will not be binding on the cabinet. Dutch MPs are concerned that concessions made by the European ministers in an effort to keep Britain in the EU will have an impact on other EU countries’ demands.

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

So that;'s not a deal then if it can already be enacted

 

Some one - and you are a good candidate - spell out exactly what deal he has got ??

 

After you Conniff.

 

Present something reasonable if you want a reasonable discussion. I'm not interested in responding to your tantrums. Take them to John Lewis.

 

In actuality, there is no deal as yet, and quite probably wont be before the referendum,

although some of the 'items' (like the red card) are as you are perhaps implying? - are at best little more than a framework for us to go begging for a favour, which may or may not be looked upon favourably.

[san_d]

give me a link to the relevant information, that would have kept the general public informed.

 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Axy0023

[citizenB]

What I would like to see is a proper signed off audit of the EUs finances..

 

http://www.ukip.org/eu_accounts_fail_audit_for_19th_year_in_a_row

 

As at December 2013 - the EU accounts failed for the 19th year in a row !

 

"The EU's budget will always be mismanaged; the system and procedures are so complex that they are open to large-scale abuse and fraud," writes UKIP's Jonathan Arnott MEP.

 

"Far better, surely, not to send money to Brussels in the first place... European government does not work, will not work and can never work.

 

"For the 19th year in a row, the EU's Court of Auditors has refused to give a clean bill of health to the EU's accounts for the year ending 31st December 2013. The EU's Court of Auditors registered an 'adverse opinion' about the legality and regularity of EU payments, blasting them as being "materially affected by error" - with almost €7 billion being paid out improperly.

 

 

"With multinationals claiming small business relief, farms claiming buildings as grazing land and officials pocketing 5 times the going rate for their jobs, I wonder whether people realise just how bad the situation is in terms of mismanagement of the EU's funds - at a time when Britain is being asked to hand over an additional €2.1 billion to the European Union within weeks?

[Consumer dude]

Is there any reason that is given that the EU accounts are not signed off ?

[tobyjugg2]

Another major UK/EU issue came up in debate elsewhere

 

Fracking

 

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/energy/unconventional_en.htm