The European Union.....In or Out?

[fletch70]

Citizen B

 

I am not sure where your info comes from, maybe THAT newspaper lol but the Students Union is putting a great deal of effort into persuading people to register to vote and take part in our democracy. In fact just as I am writing this , an email has come through urging me to register.

 

When you look at voting participation , yes it is in decline , not just in the Uk but across the world and in some respects can you blame the youngsters for not wanting to vote for the corrupt over bloated figures that run the country,

 

From my understanding, it has been the young vote that has saved has stopped some of the far right for gaining ground.

 

I was not old enough to stop the witch getting elected for the first time but every election after that I voted against her and her party.

 

I know you are a fair person so I know you will take it on board when I tell you that the HRA which only codifies what we had already signed up to in ECHR and the UN declaration of HR has ensured that I have the same rights as you do , to marry, adopt children , be treated as equal etc. Just because I don't want to get married and i find that even a small child fills me up , doesn't mean I don't appreciate the rights I have.

 

 

ECHR

Article 1

Obligation to respect Human Rights

 

Article 2

Right to life

 

Article 3

Prohibition of torture

 

Article 4

Prohibition of slavery and forced labour

 

Article 5

Right to liberty and security

 

Article 6

Right to a fair trial - so no Guantanamo bay for us

 

Article 7

No punishment without Law

 

Article 8

Right to respect for a family and private life

 

Article 9

Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

 

Article 10

Freedom of expression

 

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf

 

As you can see, a whole lot more than 'just' protecting criminals and terrorists

Remember as well, many of us have or will do things that are criminal;

At 18 for me, doing what the majority of the population took as a basic right from 16 was a criminal offence

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist , nelson mandella was called a terrorist as were people like Ghandi

http://www.oneindia.com/2013/05/22/gandhi-was-declared-terrorist-declaration-sold-cheap-1222573.html

http://truthinmedia.com/nelson-mandela-was-considered-a-terrorist-until-2008 Unbelievable !

[fletch70]

Ok so whos abusing their position by renaming the thread?

 

 

Have you contacted site team?

[honeybee13]

Site team are aware, fletch.

 

HB

[tobyjugg2]

Have you contacted site team?

 

Site team is browsing the thread right now

 

oops sorry HB didnt see your reply before typing

(didnt see you browsing either)

[fletch70]

Thanks HB

[honeybee13]

A poll of 600 independent economists shows a large percentage of them think Brexit will affect the economy.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

 

HB

[fletch70]

I love the line from one economist who thinks we should stay in, it will be ok with a fall in sterling ( so everything we import will cost more , therefore inflation will go up and as he is a monetarist , interest rates will have to rise to curb inflation ) and a 'bonfire of labour protection policies' so ok for those retired folk who live on income from bank investments but for the average worker they are stuffed well and truly.

 

BTW thank you to whomever corrected the thread title

[buckthorn]

You really do not get it, the argument is that although we pay money to the EU ,

because we get the grants and the trade and the benefits , it is nowhere near what the exit bunch claim.

 

 

 

I could not care less about how much money we pay to the EU, or

the fact that we get some back with conditions on how we spend

it, it is our money, end of story.

 

If we wish to put the whole lot in a field and burn it in a bonfire

on the 25th November that is a decision that we should make, the

people of this country, not an unelected shower i.e. the EU Commission in Brussels.

 

They need to sort out their own finances first, so that they can get their accounts

signed off. (what is it 16 years)

[fletch70]

So Buckthorn

 

Would it be right to say that you are complaining that the EU are unelected etc etc

 

If so, maybe you should actually read what has been written or do some investigations yourself about how the EU functions

 

Everything it does has been agreed by OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES

 

Do you vote in general elections?

If you do, does the party you vote for support the EU

If not, you have nothing to complain about

 

If you vote UKIP , I suggest you reread the beginning of my post because they do not know. They are quite happy to stand as MEPs and take the pay and the perks

[buckthorn]

So Buckthorn

 

Would it be right to say that you are complaining that the EU are unelected etc etc

 

If so, maybe you should actually read what has been written or do some investigations yourself about how the EU functions

 

Everything it does has been agreed by OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES

 

Do you vote in general elections?

If you do, does the party you vote for support the EU

If not, you have nothing to complain about

 

If you vote UKIP , I suggest you reread the beginning of my post because they do not know. They are quite happy to stand as MEPs and take the pay and the perks

 

I find it very strange that every time somebody put a statement on hear that people like you cannot answer

you go off on a tangent, to try and change the subject.

I was talking about our money going to the EU as you very well

know why don't you answer it???????

 

Maybe its because you have an odd notion of what the EU 'tells' us to do.

 

Do you know who makes laws in the EU?

 

Maybe the Scots have some sense and see the benefits of being a member outstrip any of the disadvantages.

 

Any sovereignty we ceded to Europe is what our elected representatives signed up for

 

This is another of your changing of a subject, I was asking why the Scots would wish to give up

their independents which they say they are fighting for, to give it all away to the EU.

But once again you have not answered the statement. WHY?

Edited June 7, 2016 by buckthorn
know

[tobyjugg2]

I could not care less about how much money we pay to the EU, or

the fact that we get some back with conditions on how we spend

it, it is our money, end of story.

 

If we wish to put the whole lot in a field and burn it in a bonfire

on the 25th November that is a decision that we should make, the

people of this country, not an unelected shower i.e. the EU Commission in Brussels.

 

They need to sort out their own finances first, so that they can get their accounts

signed off. (what is it 16 years)

 

 

Ok we stop paying the club fee

 

We then pay perhaps 10% duty on all our (approx 50% of all our exports) exports to the EU

(see WTO assessment)

- so add 5% to the cost of the total of all our exports (paid also in reduced sales due to increased cost - the EU get 10% of 50% of our exports unless we try to sell elsewhere - state where)

 

We lose the international trade deals that we have via the EU (cost unknown - nothing assumed by me)

 

We compete with the EU for Russian gas and oil - driving prices up as a minimum, and competing with a buyer 10x our size. Energy prices increase. Widespread fracking becomes essential to avoid at least a small post suez crisis type scenario.

 

Pound falls, and Inflation starts up again increasing interest rates as stated by fletch - mortgages and loans all cost us more - already seen this occur when the Brexit crew get good ratings as already commented on.

 

Investment leaves the UK (£65 billion in the last 2 months alone)

Reporting at the moment on all the news channels

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3629818/Investors-shifted-BILLIONS-pounds-UK-Brexit-battle-began-City-unease-grows-Britain-quit-EU.html

 

 

Is that enough to be going on with?

 

 

 

These are all reported facts and established processes. Boris may say everyone will come running and pay us to trade with them, but the queue to do that appears empty to everyone with eyes.

TTI{ is there - god forbid

The chinese will sell us anything, as long as we dont mind paying huge tarrifs to sell anything to their American style protectionist matket

[unclebulgaria67]

http://news.sky.com/story/1708390/billions-of-pounds-leave-uk-ahead-of-eu-vote

 

Money is already leaving the UK ahead of the referendum. If the UK votes for Brexit, there will be a massive hit on the financial markets, which might go on for sometime.

[tobyjugg2]

I was asking why the Scots would wish to give up

their independents which they say they are fighting for, to give it all away to the EU.

But once again you have not answered the statement. WHY?

 

Google Scotland and EU

Heres a start.

http://www.scotsman.com/scottish-independence/key-topic/european-union/

[tobyjugg2]

Just been watching Cameron, and despite him stepping up the pace a little, Him and Corbyn are still two of the Brexit crews greatest assets..

 

With Corbyn I have no doubts he will be pleased with that

I have no idea re Cameron. Maybe he really is just that crap.

[tobyjugg2]

from Martins latest newsletter and moneysaving expert blog, with my input after.

 

"The annual fees to the EU in 2015 were £18bn, but we get a rebate, after that the fees are £13bn, plus there’s the money the EU spends in the UK; so what it actually costs us is £8.5bn."

 

"Just a 1% (UK) economic change is £18bn a year."

 

So with the best realistic estimates for the effect of Brexit on the UK economy being 3-6% drop, (figures range from Bremains worst case scenario of 7.5% drop and Brexits completely unsupported and unsupportable 4% growth figures)

 

Taking 3% drop as the lowest figure in the reasonably supportable figure range (from my best endeavours analysis) - that equates to a cost to the UK economy of £54B PA compared to the £8-9Billion fee recovery

 

So it is clear that with a smaller economy (and those figures really dont take into account the financial institutions leaving - as they will), the EU refunds to the poorest areas would NEVER be replaced, and we all know that the UK services like the NHS, will bare the blunt of the effects of that drop in our economy.

 

Depending on how you interpret those minimum realistic figures, they COULD be interpreted/massaged into a roughly bottom line break even scenario albeit with a smaller effective economy, and a hell of a lot of work to do to stop it dropping further, let alone get some growth.

 

So as far as I can see the best possible outcome is a smaller economy with 'roughly' the same bottom line apart from the loss of the approx £9.5 billion PA to the UK's poorest, developing areas, and UK scientific development (per Stephen Hawking - google it)

And that is the BEST possible BREXIT scenario as far as I can work out

 

(takes no account of any projected throwing away of workers, environmental and peoples rights)

[tobyjugg2]

Taking them at face value without all the if buts and maybes in Brexits favour as above, that actually equates to a probable Minimum £54 billion a year DROP

(£54 billion - £9.5 billion EU fee recovery + £9.5 billion a year EU rebate to the UKs poor, developing and science.

 

and that is purely trade and does not specifically take into account workers rights, holidays, or the effects on inflation and interest rates making the cost of loans mortgages and goods (THE cost of living) much higher.

 

 

Double that for a VERY possible worser case scenario

[unclebulgaria67]

Tobyjugg

 

Financially Brexit does not make any sense, unless there are plans to turn the UK into a tax haven, where they encourage the very rich to reside and invest here ( more than now). The City of London is set free to compete with all of the global tax avoidance areas to try to become the biggest financial hub, with less regulation on Banks, Hedge Funds etc. The downside is the huge risk that comes with it and other countries stopping it happening, with sanctions and offering their own incentives to investors.

 

I can understand the sovereignty issue, with people preferring power to be vested with our own democratically elected politicians, but in reality most of the EU laws/rules we accept currently are negotiated by UK officials, sactioned by UK government, then passed by our UK parliament. Even after Brexit as being part of a common market, i fully expect a UK parliament to be implementing rules decided in Brussels. The UK just won't have the same influence on the EU.

 

I am confused why some people are voting for Brexit when they have no clear idea what they are voting for. The leave campaign have not come forward with a vision of what the UK would be like in 10 or 20 years time. It would also mean a change in government, as Cameron/Osborne would not be trusted by Brexiters to negotiate with the EU.

[tobyjugg2]

Financially Brexit does not make any sense, unless there are plans to turn the UK into a tax haven, where they encourage the very rich to reside and invest here ( more than now). The City of London is set free to compete with all of the global tax avoidance areas to try to become the biggest financial hub, with less regulation on Banks, Hedge Funds etc. The downside is the huge risk that comes with it and other countries stopping it happening, with sanctions and offering their own incentives to investors.

 

Unc

The UK (and its protectorates) is already the tax haven for 50% of the worlds tax avoidance (at best) per the fallout from the Panama papers

 

That I believe is one of the major reasons for the protections Cameron negotiated for 'The City'

 

As I noted above, my figures dont take into account financial institutions (whatever they 'manage') leaving the UK

.. and without the option to trade in the EU while being protected from its regulations and criminal charges as they are now from within the 'UK' - they will leave.

[Conniff]

Unc

The UK (and its protectorates) is already the tax haven for 50% of the worlds tax avoidance (at best) per the fallout from the Panama papers

 

That I believe is one of the major reasons for the protections Cameron negotiated for 'The City'

 

As I noted above, my figures dont take into account financial institutions (whatever they 'manage') leaving the UK

.. and without the option to trade in the EU while being protected from its regulations and criminal charges as they are now from within the 'UK' - they will leave.

 

More 'unsubstantiated' nonsense.

[tobyjugg2]

Conniff as usual said:

More 'unsubstantiated' nonsense.

What you post almost exclusively is Conniff.

 

 

Please feel free to add something supported and intelligent to the discussion Conniff,

 

because you denying the figures, links and reasoning given in these threads (let alone denying they exist), doesn't detract in any way from their reality and relevance, only your own.

[honeybee13]

Conniff as usual said:

 

 

Please feel free to add something supported and intelligent to the discussion Conniff,

 

because you denying the figures, links and reasoning (let alone denying they exist) given in these threads doesn't detract in any way from their reality and relevance, only your own.

 

TJ, it might be helpful if you could add links or refer back to ones you've already posted, so people can see where you got the information from.

 

HB

[unclebulgaria67]

More 'unsubstantiated' nonsense.

 

Don't think it is nonsense.

 

Someone recently said that the UK was the most corrupt country in the world, with a blindeye turned to transactions carried out by UK Banks. I will try to find you a link.

 

But think about the huge fines US regulators have imposed on UK Banks, LIBOR rate fixing etc. It makes you think.

 

Edit. Link added

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/when-a-mafia-expert-tells-us-britain-is-the-most-corrupt-country-in-the-world-its-time-to-start-a7057686.html

[Conniff]

Don't think it is nonsense.

 

Someone recently said that the UK was the most corrupt country in the world, with a blindeye turned to transactions carried out by UK Banks. I will try to find you a link.

 

But think about the huge fines US regulators have imposed on UK Banks, LIBOR rate fixing etc. It makes you think.

 

It may well not be nonsense UB, but it is not up to you to find links but the poster.

 

Also a claim this country is the most corrupt would be practically impossible to prove and beside that, we can all name very corrupt countries.

[unclebulgaria67]

It may well not be nonsense UB, but it is not up to you to find links but the poster.

 

You do seem to enjoy this fun game.

 

Are you related to Piers Morgan ? He winds people up most days and they always fall for it.

[Conniff]

It's not a game. A claim has been made that the UK was the most corrupt country in the world that means it is even more corrupt than:

 

Eritrea, Libya, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iraq, South Sudan, Afghanistan, Sudan and North Korea.

 

Some mafia criminal is not an authority on world matters.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Conniff