The European Union.....In or Out?

[honeybee13]

You mean corruption ?..

 

What do you mean please, CD?

 

HB

[determindator]

You mean corruption ?..

 

Well they have always said the public don't know enough about the EU complexities to make a decision. What they don't understand is our gut feelings.They need to explain better where the future is going within the EU be truthful of what the main plan is.

[tobyjugg2]

- beer would be free for all

.... I like port and gin too

 

- holidays abroad would also be free

... only if you are an immigrant and get deported

 

- unemployment to zero

... all unemployed lose passports and deported, or jailed - then deported

- minimum wage £35 an hour

... excpet for (see 800 page document)

 

- we can smoke in pubs again!

... probably

- new trade agreements with USA and China, but on our terms, because we're bigger than them

... and the trade deal just as realistic

- roads will be pretty much empty because we know it's the foreigners who clog them

... and we would have no petroleum or car imports anyway - so only the richest of the rich can afford it

- no more floodings

... as the 1 million remaining rich people could move to high ground

 

- crime will go to zero, just like before we entered the EU

... well officially reported crime

 

- pedophilia will be virtually extint. Jimmy Saville was a Polish immigrant

... but we'd still have the BBC and Parliament

 

- Farage, Gove, Johnson. One of these will become the new king of England, after killing the other two

... true - but it wouldn't be reported as a crime

 

- we can finally get rid of the Scots and the Welsh

... also true, but we'd need 4 million border staff

[tobyjugg2]

Those people who say we should vote to stay in the EU, by

using arguments to frighten the living day lights out of people,

have really sunk to a new level, which they have called a

“glitch”, some glitch.

...

 

Apparently the Election Commission has admitted a number

of local authorities were involved in this so called “glitch” in

election software, which is used by several councils, which

failed to record the nationalities of some voters. I don’t

believe a word of it, I really can’t see how with the importance

given to this referendum that that sort of mistake could

possible made I would be more inclined to think it was

deliberate, after all EU nationals have a vested interest in

voting to remain in order to protect their rights, which

includes their right to work and live here.

 

Dont worry about that - thats small fish.

The Americans want us to stay

So the Americans' Roswell HAARP technology will be used to mind control us and the vote will be 98% in favor of remain - even you, even you, even you ...

[fletch70]

If WW2 is anything to go by, yes.

 

Yes but WW1 cost them dear, the loss of an empire

[fletch70]

Why should I come around to your reason, I have chosen the sensible line, not the crackpots road.

 

It makes no difference what clubs Turkey belongs to, and Nato has nothing to do with anything. Cameron stood on a platform in Turkey and gave a load of bull thinking it would make

him popular, now it's proved the other way, he is trying to back track and get out of it.

 

I wonder if Turkey will help us in WW3.

 

No need to be rude, I am sure that if I called you a crackpot someone would edit it. Not the first time some posts have been edited to protect some of the site team -no names mentioned

 

Using the phrase crackpot suggests that you are so blinkered you have not examined the reasons for staying in and can not make a coherent argument for leaving other than stooping to playground tactics of name calling

[silverfox1961]

This thread is getting very close to that fine line. I am all for free speech but not at the expense of belittling posts. This particular thread has had some leniency due to the importance of the discussion.

 

For information, threads are edited when needed and it doesn't matter who the offender is be it CAG users or site team. I don't make decisions based on who is or who isn't site team. If a user slags off a site team member without justification, this gets edited/removed. Where justified, the post remains unless it starts a flame war. This thread has bounced back and forth between normal posts and flame posts so on the whole it balances itself out.

 

Fletch, you have expressed your displeasure at the post made by Conniff and that is fine. There is (at the moment) no need for action however, I would ask that people here treat each other how they would expect to be treated.

Respect can be given easily and removed just as evenly.

 

The one big problem with this thread is that it is ALL supposition. There is NO sensible line NOR ANY crackpot road. There hasn't been any real term of reference from the past to judge how the EU will be after the referendum. We choose to believe what we are told from both sides and as we know. Both sides will lie to us to get the result they want. Scaremongering of the highest order.

 

Both sides have an agenda which we will never know about because it suits the politicians to do so which is why I will go with my gut and my beliefs.

 

What WILL help this thread is if posters say 'MAY' rather than 'WILL' as nobody knows what will happen, only what may.

For example: Michael Gove (and others) state we give the EU £350m a week to the EU. Not true and they know it as the rebate is removed prior to payment

The Common Agriculture Policy is ringfenced by the EU. Will that be maintained by the UK if we leave? Doubt it.

The NHS will receive an extra £100m a week by 2020. Is that true? I doubt it.

 

I could go on but the simple FACT is that until we know where we stand, silly statements mean nothing so I suggest to the posters that state their own view of facts, wind their necks in and debate respectfully.

[unclebulgaria67]

The debate within this CAG thread has been quite mild compared to the spats between various politicians, who are supposed to be members of the same political party.

 

Listening to David Mellor on LBC this morning and he thinks that if the country votes for Brexit, that there will be a renegotiation between UK and EU to try to keep the UK within the EU. If Mellor is correct, surely this would mean another referendum based on the renegotiation. Boris Johnson has said as PM this is what he might well do, but Cameron says that if people vote to leave the EU, that is what will happen.

 

Personally, i think this referendum is a mistake as the country is split 50/50 and a narrow win either way is likely to cause a political storm, with a war within the Tory party, a leadership contest and the possibility of an early election. Cameron did not think he would win a majority at the election and therefore he could avoid the referendum under a coalition deal. The winning of a majority will ironically be the cause of Camerons downfall.

[tobyjugg2]

The NHS will receive an extra £100m a week by 2020. Is that true? I doubt it.

 

I think Gove effectively buried that 'suggestion' last night.

.. or indeed any Brexit claim that the NHS will get any more money.

Mind you, at least he didn't actually confirm the NHS would get less (but it would).

[fletch70]

UB

It is , as you say ironic that the winning of a majority has caused so many problems for cameron , it was the winning of the 92 election that helped to give us 13 years of a centre right party called new labour.

 

Cameron is of course quite safe to say that if the referendum votes to leave that is what he intends to do because he knows that he will not be PM let alone leader to see that happen, we all know , even using the parliament Act just how long it takes to get a controversial state passed. I have suspected from day 1 that some believe that a no vote will be used to renegotiate the terms of us staying in the EU, the problem is, if that is to lead to another referendum , who can predict the outcome. I am afraid i do not hold many of the electorate in particularly high regard as explained by earlier posts when I referred to the powers of the press.

 

As Silverfox says , no one is giving us true answers but that is probably because no one can give real figures. Take how much it costs to be in the EU, yes there is a cost but then there is a rebate and also grants paid to regenerate areas , these were particularly great in the 80's and 90's i believe to regenerate areas decimated by the deindustrialisation of this country, caused , in my opinion by the decisive conservative government of the time.

Then we have the benefits in trade, so maybe that negates all of the excess or most of it and maybe the extra security is worth even more.

 

We have benefited greatly in the past from the EU and I am not sure it is right to say , ok so we have had our fill now so we don't want to lay any more.

 

Then we move onto the claim that the EU makes laws for us , well they can do nothing that our elected leaders have not at sometime agreed to. I do not agree with our electoral system but from what I have seen , most of the leave campaign like it. Our so called democratically elected leaders have signed the treaties that allow the council of ministers and commissioners to make the laws that they do, so please do not use the notion of it being undemocratic as an excuse to vote out, our parliament is not representative of the will of the people , for example look at the number of seats UKIP , SNP and the lib dems got in relation to the votes they polled- now that IS undemocratic

[tobyjugg2]

Cameron v Islam (Faisel)

 

Gove

 

 

 

Cant wait for Cameron V Farage

[unclebulgaria67]

The key question is what harm has the EU caused to the UK economy and whether the EU is holding back the UK economy ?

 

I don't think the EU has caused any harm and the UK benefits from being part of a block of countries, which will prove to be very important in the years ahead, as the US and China fight it out to be the largest economy.

 

When i look around my local area, there are a large number of companies who operate throughout Europe, because the EU facilitates common rules across Europe, making it much easier to trade. If the UK was not part of the EU and there were lots of different trading arrangements, i am not sure these companies would have invested in UK offices, factories etc.

 

According to Cameron, after 2 years of triggering the relevant EU clause to leave the organisation, the UK would be faced with having to live under World Trade Organisation rules, rather than current EU rules. This will make it very difficult for companies to plan investment, make decisions for their businesses and will therefore affect their employees. If there is uncertainty, we know that investment gets choked off and companies make different decisions.

[fletch70]

Oh god help us, if we have to live under WTO rules we are stuffed.

Can someone please explain to me how an organisation that is supposed to encourage global trade that covers agriculture , industry etc yet lets the EU have protectionist agricultural programs . the CAP is one such program , I wonder if we will be able to compete in exporting agricultural products to the EU without the CAP

 

I know people are saying that the money 'saved' will just be put back into the sectors that have lost it but I do not believe that for a moment, IMHO politicians are generally corrupt in that they will do whatever it takes to get themselves re elected . Why save a 'few' farmers when the middle classes could be given tax cuts.

 

After a small amount of study on the World bank group , I am convinced they have one goal and that is to maintain Americas supremacy

[tobyjugg2]

Oh god help us, if we have to live under WTO rules we are stuffed.

Can someone please explain to me how an organisation that is supposed to encourage global trade that covers agriculture , industry etc yet lets the EU have protectionist agricultural programs . the CAP is one such program , I wonder if we will be able to compete in exporting agricultural products to the EU without the CAP

 

Absolutely

Consider those who should be considered our true enemies, China and America.

 

Both are immensely protective of their own profit generation, preventing outside competition and denying markets whilst demanding others open their markets.

 

yes the EU does the same for its own internal markets (when Cameron doesn't block them) - as it needs to to survive against China and America.

Without being part of that EU market, in a group that protects each other, we are very much at the mercy of America and China who would even more consider us just a small player to take advantage of.

 

The EU is by no means perfect, but being in it is vastly superior to the relalities of being outside it, a small fish in a big pond with some damned big and merciless sharks.

 

 

 

 

I know people are saying that the money 'saved' will just be put back into the sectors that have lost it but I do not believe that for a moment, IMHO politicians are generally corrupt in that they will do whatever it takes to get themselves re elected . Why save a 'few' farmers when the middle classes could be given tax cuts.

 

After a small amount of study on the World bank group , I am convinced they have one goal and that is to maintain Americas supremacy

 

Absolutely. Anyone who claims otherwise should give some evidence. I can't find ant which contradicts what you say, but plenty which support that perspective.

[buckthorn]

That’s me I’ll be voting to stay in after all, how can I not,

after all how can I possible argue against the likes of

Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Ed Miliband and Neil Kinnock,

all leading pillars of society, who say we should stay.

 

Gordon Brown:- sold our gold at such a low price he may

has well given it away. He was rubbish as PM.

Tony Blair:- took us into an illegal war, at a cost of hundreds

of lives and lied to the country to do so. Wanted to be

President of the EU. Now makes his money both him and his

misses from talking to dictators war mongers and murders.

Ed Miliband:- what can I say about him, as wet as

2 damp rags, could anybody really take him seriously, a right

plonker put his manifesto on a great big tomb stone, ever

seen him eat a bacon sandwich.

 

Last but not least we have.

Neil Kinnock:- the Welsh windbag, EU commissioner, did not

last long though sacked his head of auditing because she would

not sign off EU accounts because of corruption of funds. He wants

to stay in of course, he gets a pension from the EU, why would he

want to leave, even managed to get his wife elected as an MEP.

 

Says it all really. Na! think I’ll change my mind and still vote to leave.

[buckthorn]

Here are some fact about the future if we pull out of the EU.

 

‘Outside the EU, British Law will collapse: the wheels will fall off

cars, television sets will burst into flames, workers will be reduced

to medieval servitude, those children not up chimneys or down mines

will be poisoned by their toys or electrocuted by their cell phones,

grass will wither, sheep will die; and we shall be invaded by geriatric

swivel-eyed loons from the planet Zog.’

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by buckthorn
add

[buckthorn]

Now for the real facts if we leave:-

 

EU directives are part of British Law and will continue to hold until a

British Parliament is free to repeal or amend them. That can only

happen if we vote to leave the EU on June 23rd.

 

The difference will be that our MPs will no longer have the EU as an

excuse to absolve themselves from responsibility for the most

egregious absurdities. They will once again be answerable only to us,

the electorate. If they fail to get rid of our rubbish, we shall be able

to get rid of them.

 

(‘Si vous m’obstucterez, je vous get-ridderez’- Churchill to de Gaulle-

possibly apocryphal, but certainly in character).

 

It is simply untrue to assert we shall have to submit to all EU rules in

order to trade with it. We shall have to meet EU standards for export

to the EU but we shall once more be allowed to make and buy

(eg) 2 kW vacuum cleaners for domestic consumption and for export

to the rest of the world.

 

‘Harmonisation’ has more to do with anti-competitive lobbying on the

Commission by large corporations than it has with consumer protection.

Those same large corporations (and EU-funded NGOs) are doubtless

characterised as ‘of any standing’, implicitly dismissed as worthless the

complaints from a plethora of entrepreneurs and small businesses about

the stultifying effects of EU anti-competitive strangulation.

 

I do not regard the sacrifice of our fishermen and farmers to European

interests as matters of little worth or their complaints as having little standing.

 

I have consistently maintained the issues are constitutional. No-one has

much idea what the economic future holds, because there are, by definition,

no ‘facts’ about the future. The question is’ who governs us?’. My answer, for

better or worse, is ‘not you EU!’

[fletch70]

Buckthorn

Now you are just being a little silly

 

As said, no one knows what will happen exactly however with the polarisation of politics that seems to be happening we will probably always have right of centre governments , with a centre right labour party and a far right conservative UKIP.

 

If that happens, you can be sure that an economy based on liberal capitalism will surely gain ground, that means small state i.e low welfare which includes hospitals pensions and all the things that most people rely on, less regulation, less workers protection and an increase in the already huge divide between rich and poor.

 

If you don't believe me think of this

For the last 5 years I have regularly walked through Birmingham city centre in the early morning and now see more and more homeless people. 5 years ago it was the odd one, now I see a minimum of 10-15 every day and that included the winter. That is a five minute walk from the bus to the station so not exactly a comprehensive survey

 

Look at the waiting list for social housing, the stock was sold off in the 80's onwards and has never been replaced.

 

It was interesting to see Gove squirm on the sky interview

[Conniff]

....but being in it is vastly superior to the relalities of being outside it,....

 

Despite post #782 you are continuing to make definitive statements without backing them up. You need to be pushing 70 to have experienced life outside the EU.

What you are saying is this country was a slum, made nothing, sold nothing abroad when the exact opposite is the truth.

 

So if being inside is so superior, what are these realities ??

Lets see true reasons and not hearsay guesses ???

[Conniff]

As said, no one knows what will happen exactly however with the polarisation of politics that seems to be happening we will probably always have right of centre governments , with a centre right labour party and a far right conservative UKIP.

 

We definitely will not have a centre right government if Labour gets in, especially if Corbyn is still the leader, it will be so far left it will make Putin look like a far right winger.

[fletch70]

It seems a quick goal post move has happened

 

People who want out are saying that when we had the referendum for the EEC it was very different which is was in the 70's. That's when the wheels fell of and we had to go cap in hand to the IMF and their SAP

That led directly to the winter of 78/79 , the winter of discontent .

 

If Britain as a relatively rich country even then suffered so much, look at what damage the American driven IMF and WB do

 

http://johnpilger.com/videos/war-by-other-means

 

Certainly worth a watch but slightly off topic but does provide some evidence of what SAPs do

[fletch70]

Conniff

As you have said many times it may well be that Corbyn is unelectable although to refer to him as so far left of Putin kind of misses the point. Putin is a totalitarian leader who seems to have delusions of grandeur.

 

Sadly I believe that we will have centre right governments just as the do in the US. This will lead to increasing focus on making the rich richer and there is no evidence of the so called trickle down effect.

To be fair to Obama he has tried to provide services for the poor but their system makes it almost impossible.

 

People talk about trading with the US but what happens if the talking hairpiece gets elected and goes into glorious isolationism. No trade . If we stay in, at least we will have Europe to trade with.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that Germany is a net exporter to us, that's because their industrial base was not destroyed by various governments.

 

Another good read to see what harm the right do is Esping-Andersons Three worlds of welfare capitalism . We are more like America than we care to admit .

 

And I am not fan of the American State.

[Conniff]

I will admit that the comparison with Putin was a bit wild, Putin is just an egotistical bully, warmonger and thief.

 

But never a center right Labour. Corbyn has already said and his cabinet agreed that they will nationalise half the country, that definitely isn't to the right.

 

I love America, I lived and worked there for many years, and worked with American people in many countries around the world, the people are kind, friendly and honest. The only thing I didn't like was their attempt at scrambled eggs.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Conniff

[fletch70]

For clarity

I did not mention the American people, I said the American state. Huge difference

 

I wish Corbyn could win and nationalise much of British business , water, electricity, gas just for a start. These are profitable businesses that worry about shareholder dividends rather than re investment. What percentage are British owned?

 

Arriva and cross country are German, elf is French, need I go on

[buckthorn]

Buckthorn

Now you are just being a little silly

 

For the last 5 years I have regularly walked through Birmingham city centre in the early morning and now see more and more homeless people. 5 years ago it was the odd one, now I see a minimum of 10-15 every day and that included the winter. That is a five minute walk from the bus to the station so not exactly a comprehensive survey

 

Look at the waiting list for social housing, the stock was sold off in the 80's onwards and has never been replaced.

 

And all that since we have been a member of the EU, cant really see that it can be any worse if we pull out.