Entering yellow box and stopping Walton Forest

[aym280]

Hi

 

Our car was snapped moving along with other cars and we got a penalty notice. Please see http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=f6f80b089747e06ef1c94390293c17bf7073b763

 

The cars before us were moving, and how were we going to predict that we were stranded there?

 

Cash cow for Waltham Forest.

 

See give advice.

[green_and_mean]

The simple answer is, you are not meant to predict they are going to stop. There are two approaches to a box junction a) stop at the edge and await a car sized space on the far side before proceeding or b) crawl across bumper to bumper and hope no one in front stops. One is far more likely to result in a PCN than the other.

[aym280]

Thank you for your advice. When I look at the footage, I wonder why they didn't start the yellow box after the tip of the striped triangle. What is the point of starting the yellow box so early. Not a single vehicle could come into High Road Leytonestone at RIGHT angle any way.

 

If they had painted the yellow box right the the taped end of the triangle, more vehicles could move in the yellow boxed area and faster flowing will be the traffic. As you can see, even the arrows to cross over E11 are curved. Now, the north bit of the yellow box seems like an entrapment and a CASHCOW for Waltham Forest Council.

 

NICE EARNER, WALTHAM FOREST. I wonder what happened to the black vehicle which stopped and then wriggled to a free space!

[SabreSheep]

How can you be caught in a box junction if yo wait for a space to open up the other side before entering.........

[Jamberson]

It does happen. Two lanes of traffic, and although you have a car space opposite you when you enter, a car from the other lane cuts in a fills it before you've reached the other side of the box.

[BazzaS]

It does happen. Two lanes of traffic, and although you have a car space opposite you when you enter, a car from the other lane cuts in a fills it before you've reached the other side of the box.

 

What is the offence?

Entering a box junction when your exist isn't clear, or stopping in the box?

[obiter dictum]

Just shooting from the hip

 

Would they not be the same as in a Moving violation?

[Jamberson]

It's been discussed on here before. It's strange because you only commit the offence if you come to a stop, but the offence is entering without a clear exit - which obviously you can do, and keep moving (slowly), therby not commiting the offence; and conversely you can enter with a clear exit but end up falling foul. I don't think it's entirely clear what the precise offence is - but common sense tells us, when your wheels stop on the yellow area, you're guilty.

[BazzaS]

but common sense tells us, when your wheels stop on the yellow area, you're guilty.

 

Even if your exit was clear when you entered?

 

Such as if something intervened? (Car cut in front of you, emergency service vehicle pulls across junction ......)

[havinastella]

Looking at the video, you are bang to rights. looks like your fault completely.

[king12345]

That yellow box doesn't comply with the regulations, therefore the pcn is unenforceable.

Also you have to check if the camera is an approved device. I bet not.

Have a google at the junction to see if others have successfully had the pcn cancelled.

[king12345]

Pardon me, it does comply.

Check that the camera is approved and if anyone managed to get out of the pcn

[Jamberson]

Even if your exit was clear when you entered?

 

Such as if something intervened? (Car cut in front of you, emergency service vehicle pulls across junction ......)

 

Yes indeed. That's why it's so frustrating. People drive as they should then someone blocks them unexpectedly and they get a PCN. It's not right, but that's how it goes.

[king12345]

Even if your exit was clear when you entered?

 

Such as if something intervened? (Car cut in front of you, emergency service vehicle pulls across junction ......)

 

I disagree with jamberson but I won't start another debate about the interpretation of this rule.

In my opinion and based on my experience, the offence is entering the yellow box when the exit is not clear, so if your exit is clear and then you are cut off you are not committing an offence: You enter the box having clear exit and if suddenly and unexpectedly that exit becomes blocked you're not at fault.

However the LA will send you a pcn and refuse your appeal.

Remember, those yellow boxes serve only one purpose: Make money for the LA.

[obiter dictum]

"Remember, those yellow boxes serve only one purpose: Make money for the LA."

 

 

The purpose of those yellow boxes is public safety and to keep the traffic moving.

 

How many times have you been stopped at a crossroads in an inner city or town because the exit was not clear.

 

Some impatient tit still procedes to block your exit and your traffic lights are on green??

[BazzaS]

I disagree with jamberson but I won't start another debate about the interpretation of this rule.

In my opinion and based on my experience, the offence is entering the yellow box when the exit is not clear, so if your exit is clear and then you are cut off you are not committing an offence: You enter the box having clear exit and if suddenly and unexpectedly that exit becomes blocked you're not at fault.

However the LA will send you a pcn and refuse your appeal.

Remember, those yellow boxes serve only one purpose: Make money for the LA.

 

The Highway Code makes no mention of stopping, and focuses solely on entering when your exit isn't clear.

 

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183 at 174.

 

 

That page refers toTSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)

 

10(1) doesn't help, and 29(2) refers to Schedule 19, part II

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/19/made

 

7.—(1)*Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2)*The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person—

(a)

who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

(b)

stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

 

So, whilst the Highway Code says entering is the issue, the statute notes that the offence only occurs if you stop. Don't actually stop : absolute defence.

Stop but not due to stationary vehicles (so, to allow a moving emergency service vehicle to pass) : again a defence.

 

Since you have to "cause a vehicle to enter" for it to be able to stop in the box, I think the Highway Code oversimplifies things in terms of the underlying law.

 

A) 30+ years of my incorrect understanding of the rule : corrected. (Well, it may not be 30 years : depending on what the legislation said before the 2002 legislation)

B) if the exit was clear on entry and became blocked as a result of another's bad driving : I can only hope any such PCN would be cancelled on appeal.

 

However, returning to the OP: I don't think you can claim that you couldn't anticipate having to stop on the box. Unless you can find a different technicality to defeat the PCN you'll be paying up.

[king12345]

"Remember, those yellow boxes serve only one purpose: Make money for the LA."

 

 

The purpose of those yellow boxes is public safety and to keep the traffic moving.

 

How many times have you been stopped at a crossroads in an inner city or town because the exit was not clear.

 

Some impatient tit still procedes to block your exit and your traffic lights are on green??

 

Please note something: Whenever there's a power cut and lights don't work, there's less traffic.

Drivers let others in and become instantly more courteous.

Most of these prohibitions are only there to catch you out and make you pay.

Unfortunately we are not trusted to have a human brain and we have to be told to wait at a junction at 3am while there's nothing to wait for.

And then they moan about global warming or whatever it's called this week.

[obiter dictum]

I appreciate what you are saying king12345 but totally irrelevant

 

The law is there for a reason, even if we do not agree we still have to comply

[Jamberson]

Yesterday I was stopped at traffic lights half-way round a big roundabout. In front of me was a box junction, and you guessed it, someone stopped in it. When the lights went green, two lanes of traffic, me in one, had to all merge while accelerating, in order to squeeze past the back end of this car, despite one lane having a clear way ahead. In short, dangerous - that's why the box is there.

 

In so much as it's exploited for money - I agree, but that's not it's primary purpose.

[green_and_mean]

Pardon me, it does comply.

Check that the camera is approved and if anyone managed to get out of the pcn

 

Approved by whom? Where does the LLA 2003 state PCNs may only be issued by an approved device?

[BazzaS]

Approved by whom? Where does the LLA 2003 state PCNs may only be issued by an approved device?

 

I concurr.

OP : If you were to be foolish enough to decide to go to court over it, expect the camera operator to appear as a witness.

The court can also choose if it wishes to view the footage : at a minimum expect the camera operator to ask to view the footage if challenged that they had made an error, and to confirm their recollection of events was correct.

[king12345]

The camera might have been installed for the provision of safety and public order.

An argument that has been used at patas is that the camera, by following and zooming cars, might miss a violent crime.

There are a few of them in Hounslow.

One day someone will be attacked and there will be no footage because the operator is busy making money for the LA.

[obiter dictum]

"The camera might have been installed for the provision of safety and public order."

 

Then i will take it that is for road traffic safety then?

 

The cameras are there for road safety and public safety

[king12345]

"The camera might have been installed for the provision of safety and public order."

 

Then i will take it that is for road traffic safety then?

 

The cameras are there for road safety and public safety

 

I'm sorry, but since when making millions out of innocent motorists is considered to be in public safety interests?

If that was a concern they should issue penalty points and no monetary charge.

But points on the licence don't line the LA's pockets...

[obiter dictum]

Neither do Civil Penalty orders the old bill dish out on a saturday night

 

They cannot be innocent motorists if they transgressed and caught bang to rights

 

It all comes down to education