DWP back their sanctions with make believe

[sadone]

That is all there is ever put forward. Everyone whinges but not one has come back with an argument on why (in their opinion), it is not working.

 

Go and use Google hon. I don't see why we should do your work for you. There's more then enough examples of how badly it's doing and how so many private companies are getting fat off the back of UK tax payers and producing such poor results.

 

But from now on I'm going to do my best to ignore your inane troll like comments.

 

Here's a thing though, with your attitude towards welfare surely you'd be better off modding on forums such as Money saving expert. You'd fit in there beautifully....

[obiter dictum]

It is no longer voluntary either

 

Mandatory Work Activity

 

Prior to me being on ESA i was given a job seekers direction.

That Direction was to spend a month with a Roofing Thatcher. I was on crutches. Even though i objected i was still sanctioned for 4 weeks.(Won at tribunal)

 

So don't anyone dare tell me Work activity is good for you. It is slave labour profiting business and stopping companies taking on contracted employees off the employment figures

 

That is why it is not working as it is all about figures, not individuals

[speedfreek]

[tfp]

Sorry, but O'Brien is just a self opinionated fool. He continued to say that 1,700 people applied for 3 positions in a coffee shop, what has that got to do with anything let alone the government ?

 

 

The WP is a great system and works.

 

And that's all you could find in the above interview then? IF the WP is such a great system, then pray tell us why? Do you have knowledge of it's workings? More so than those of us who've actually been on it? Perhaps you'd be as good as to contact Margaret Hodge, chair of the Commons PAC to see what she has to say on the WP You could tell her why she and many others who've amassed plenty of evidence to the contrary why they're wrong and you're right.. You are either a bored troll or are talking out of pure ignorance.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10693860/Work-programme-not-meeting-needs-of-unemployed.html

[Bazooka Boo]

Hardly a troll on the site team.

 

I think it was just a wind up, at least that's what I hope it is, no-one in their right mind can

seriously believe the lies spouted by politicians especially where the corrupt DWP are concerned.

[tommy456]

I don't see where he is lying and misleading, He has told it like it is, this country is paying out too much in benefits, Labour introduced benefits and credits for just about anyone and everything and that is why we have this massive debt, someone has to have the guts to get this country back to living within it's means and can proudly use the title 'Great' again.

 

But it's not the ESA and JSA claimants who are responsible for the bulk of the benefits bill, it's things like pensions, and all those add ons that aren't means tested , then you have child benefit being paid to all , again not means tested, and typically more child benefit is or used to be paid to the upper classes because they tend to send their brats to higher education, so claim until their 18yrs old where as most of the working classes their kidz tend leave education at 16yrs, then you got the in work benefits WTC/FTC ect subsidising employers, Some who are employing 2 people for the price of one, this also massages the real number of unemployed , if employers where forced to pay a living wage at the very least, the number of these low paid jobs would decrease

[sadone]

Hardly a troll on the site team.

 

I think it was just a wind up, at least that's what I hope it is, no-one in their right mind can

seriously believe the lies spouted by politicians especially where the corrupt DWP are concerned.

 

If It is indeed a wind up then I would expect better behavior from a mod. Call me old fashioned but imo a mod should be setting an example and no going around trying to get a rise out of other posters like this. It's not this this person hasn't got a long history of this antagonistic behavior in this section of the forum either and so I'm surprised that it's been allowed to go on for so long.

 

I'm not saying they're not allowed to voice their own opinions, but there's a time and place for it, and this section isn't it imo.

[obiter dictum]

Ian Duncan Smith a Fine upstanding honourable man ??

 

Sometimes i wonder what planet some people are on believing this propaganda from that confirmed liar.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/12_december/19/newsnight_ids_cv.shtml

 

Let us not also forget Cameron a multi-millionaire sponged off the state claiming disability allowance for his son as well

[obiter dictum]

Let us look at Smiths army career. He was so bad they made him an aide-de-camp for a senior officer. keeps him away from the troops as a jumped up bag carrier.

 

Seems he was a Lieutenant, not a captain as he has stated. You enlist at Sandhurst as a second Lieutenant and If you do not make captain in 5 years you are out. That fits in nicely with smiths army career time scale

 

Smith, is just a plain, old-fashioned confidence trickster?

[sadone]

I think the short term for that is a liar.

[obiter dictum]

If the army could not even trust him to run a platoon of squaddies , how the hell can he run a Government department responsible for millions of people.??

 

The man is a BUFFOON and a Proven LIAR

[SabreSheep]

If It is indeed a wind up then I would expect better behavior from a mod. Call me old fashioned but imo a mod should be setting an example and no going around trying to get a rise out of other posters like this. It's not this this person hasn't got a long history of this antagonistic behavior in this section of the forum either and so I'm surprised that it's been allowed to go on for so long.

 

I'm not saying they're not allowed to voice their own opinions, but there's a time and place for it, and this section isn't it imo.

 

As much as I disagree with the Site Team Member, remember that they are entitled to their view. IF they honestly hold that view then the recourse is to challenge that view through dialogue and not berating them for having that view.

 

As a Site team we are supposed to use our Moderation Powers in an impartial way. However, the views expressed by the Site team members are, like everyone else, their own. So long as no Site rules are broken there is no problem.

 

You do no change someones mind by censoring them. Challenge it

 

"I disagree with what you say, but will defend to my death, your right to say it"

[sadone]

We've all done that a hundred times, but imo when some is that (apparently) right wing and imo deluded whatever you say is going to be ignored. Which is what I think everyone should do to this particular poster from now on. They're not helping they're just trolling now.

 

Also I've never been on a fourum where the mods act like this. Call me naive but I thought they're meant to be impartial and there main concern is to advise people, not act as cheer leaders for the very regime thats making so many peoples lives on here a misery.

 

"I disagree with what you say, but will defend to my death, your right to say it"

 

Oh I agree, but as I said there's a time and a place and imo this thread isn't it as it's only acting to wind people up. If they feel that passionately about welfare then maybe the discussion area is a better place for those views.

[obiter dictum]

To an extent i must agree with Sadone.

 

By its very nature this forum is political. What happens if you get an influx of Mods who support a certain political party?? We will then end up with nothing more than an echo chamber. This is one forum as an example the kippers have not taken control over with mass spamming.

 

I think the forum moderators should be able to debate political issues, but not show their allegiance quite so overtly considering the position they hold. By all means debate issues with facts, not political propaganda.

[sadone]

Exactly. Well said.

[SabreSheep]

Also bear in mind that the site team are volunteers and have the right to air their views as much as anyone else so long as it does not impact on their actual moderation. Also the person you complain of has only taken part in the discussion in this thread and has not undertaken any moderation. I do not see any reason to complain.

 

Also you will find the site team are taken from all across the Political Spectrum, Me and Coniff are from different ends of it.

 

You do raise a valid point, Maybe I started this thread in the wrong place. This is a discussion thread and not a practical help thread.

As such I Shall move it to the Bear garden,

 

And another thing, any discussion is Political at some level or another. As long as those beliefs do not interfere with the duties carried out by the Site Team then there is no grounds for complaint.

[SabreSheep]

To an extent i must agree with Sadone.

 

By its very nature this forum is political. What happens if you get an influx of Mods who support a certain political party?? We will then end up with nothing more than an echo chamber. This is one forum as an example the kippers have not taken control over with mass spamming.

 

I think the forum moderators should be able to debate political issues, but not show their allegiance quite so overtly considering the position they hold. By all means debate issues with facts, not political propaganda.

 

And thats where discussion comes in.

If something is posted that is "Mere Propaganda" then expose it for what it is, using facts. That is how you win the argument.

[tfp]

And thats where discussion comes in.

If something is posted that is "Mere Propaganda" then expose it for what it is, using facts. That is how you win the argument.

 

Fair enough. But this works both ways. Simply trying to trash peoples arguments (largely based on their own experiences) and derail a thread by saying ''the WP is a great system'' without being able to back it up shows not only a lack of knowledge and depth, but also makes the individual concerned look like a troublemaker.

 

No problem with a hearty debate. But that is what it should be...a debate! Not with one side doing all the donkey work and the other making sub par snipes. Sadly, such individuals are often not concerned with facts and figures presented to them all day long.

[Conniff]

I don't belong to or support any particular party and will you get this 'your a mod so not allowed a voice' out of the thread, it has nothing to do with anything.

Because my name is in orange, does that mean I am not allowed a voice. While you all insist that you are right and I am wrong, you are doing exactly the thing that you are accusing me of.

 

Yes I've thrown in some wind ups because you are all so easy, but also coming over narrow minded and not interested in the wider picture. You're only seeing what you want to see and sod everyone else,

a bit like the greens with their continual whinge about cars and fossil fuel. Do they take their family to Cornwall for a holiday on a bike, no they go on busses, trains and cars.

 

I have no objection to anyone voicing opposition to something, but that opposition must also come with what you believe is a solution or it means nothing.

There are no solutions or even thoughts of what should happen instead in this thread.

 

I voted Conservative for the past two elections, the first times in my life I have not voted Labour. I voted that way partly because of the daily used and boring saying 'long term plan'.

 

You say what you want, but deep down, you can't honestly believe that this country can go on the way it has been. Most subscribers to these forums are here because they are paying out more than they

have coming in and realise they cannot continue living that way. Well so is the country and it also can't continue living that way.

 

Someone asked am I just looking in from the sidelines, (without using those exact words), no I'm not. I am disabled and on benefits, (and I use that word as a general term for all types of payments,

others might want to call it something else).

 

What I can see in this country is the belief that the world owes people a living when the world owes them nothing. Attitudes have changed and it's now a materialistic world where nothing else seems to matter.

 

It's obvious to me that if I have more coming in than I am paying out that I will have a better standard of living and the same goes for the country. If the Government have a nice surplus, we will be able to

afford a good sizes armed forces, the taxes will be reduced etc.

 

Lets think ahead and go with what is good for the whole country and not just steadfastly support and vote one party because that is the way my dad did and his dad before him.

[Conniff]

Fair enough. But this works both ways. Simply trying to trash peoples arguments (largely based on their own experiences) and derail a thread by saying ''the WP is a great system'' without being able to back it up shows not only a lack of knowledge and depth, but also makes the individual concerned look like a troublemaker.

 

No problem with a hearty debate. But that is what it should be...a debate! Not with one side doing all the donkey work and the other making sub par snipes. Sadly, such individuals are often not concerned with facts and figures presented to them all day long.

 

We have to agree that the majority of school leavers have no idea what the big world is like and work experience is one way to show them how it works. I agree that sending someone in a wheelchair to Openreach as a linesman is utterly stupid.

Some of the problems are because the staff are overstretched and some because they are stupid and uncaring. It is them that should be sanctioned.

 

You must remember that it is work experience and they are gaining social skills without loosing JS. Has anyone seen the figures of how many of the work experience people are then taken on permanently? No, neither have I so can't comment on that, but you can bet it's a lot and for others it gives them a better insight what the workplace is like and what is expected of them.

 

If they didn't do WP, would all of them be out looking for employment, no they wouldn't and you know that. A lot would be hanging around the park or taking the dog for a walk and others with the mindset that it's them in the job center getting paid to get me a job.

[obiter dictum]

And i was under the impression the careers service in schools did that, arranged placements etc>>

 

Well they did until the Government got rid of that service from local authorities and gave it to cash strapped schools out of their budget. Is it any wonder kids have not a clue on working life as they have had no work experience.

 

Government cuts have led to thousands of careers advisors being laid off.

 

I was a trade union rep specialising in health and safety for a major employer. Part of my duties were liaising with careers officers for placements of these kids.

 

I used to do 20 a year, i was lucky to do one a year when the Tories came to power

[tfp]

Bleating on about school leavers and how good the WP supposedly is (despite plenty of evidence here and elsewhere to the contrary) is missing the point totally. I thought the issue was a major govt. department deliberately misleading the public using fake testimonials (in a way that could get a business investigated by thee ASA), to promote government reforms, headed by a man with form for lying and deception.

 

If these testimonials were in ay way justified, why has the DWP pulled them? Why do we hear no apology or even explanation by Smith himself? And why did the DWP think they could get away with this behaviour in the first place?

[obiter dictum]

More to the point why are they not being held accountable for deliberate sustained lies??

[tfp]

More to the point why are they not being held accountable for deliberate sustained lies??

 

I agree. We could also ask ''If these reforms are going so well, why lie in the first place? Can they not stand on their own facts?''

 

Lying seems endemic within the DWP and the W2W sector. I have witnessed it first hand. If Jack and Jane Average were mislead by a company they were going to purchase from, they'd go elsewhere. Of course, with a government dept., such choice in unavailable. And sadly, too many people believe the facts and figures presented to them. Making this deception actually very dangerous as a result.

 

As someone starting their own business, I have a number of marketing books. The one thing they all tell you is if using testimonials, do not use fake ones. As your credibility will take a hit if found out. As we've seen with the DWP over the past couple of days. That said, the DWP and it's head, Smith have lost so much credibility with the people they purport to help, I guess they see no harm in this.

[obiter dictum]

In 2012 the Government axed "Connections" The careers advice service for school kids to save 200 million a year

 

Then we had work place providers such as A4E who were subsequently convicted of fraud.

 

These providers earn payments from every referral from the job centre. Well it does get them off the unemployment statistics for a while, the same as sanctions.

 

So if the Government axed connection to save 200 million a year, how much is the total budget given to these so called work place providers??

 

I feel a FOI request is in order