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    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
    • urm......exactly what you filed .....read it carefully... it puts them to strict proof to prove the debt is enforceable, so thus 'holds' their claim till they coughup or not and discontinue. you need to get readingthose threads i posted so you understand. then you'll know whats maybe next how to react or not and whats after that. 5-10 threads a day INHO. dont ever do anything without checking here 1st.
    • I've done a new version including LFI's suggestions.  I've also change the order to put your strongest arguments first.  Where possible the changes are in red.  The numbering is obviously knackered.  Methinks stuff about the consideration period could be added but I'm too tired now.  See what you think. Background  1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of November 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.  Unfair PCN  4.1  On XXXXX the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) the solicitors helpfully sent photos of 46 signs in their evidence all  clearly showing a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will  be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  There can be no room for doubt here - there are 46 signs produced in the Claimant's own evidence. 4.2  Yet the PCN affixed to the vehicle was for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid promptly).  The reminder letters from the Claimant again all demanded £100. 4.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.   4.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim. No Locus Standi 2.1  I do not believe a contract exists with the landowner that gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-  (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or  (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44  For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.  2.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The contract produced was largely illegible and heavily redacted, and the fact that it contained no witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “No Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract. Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed  3.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.  3.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses this document.  No Keeper Liability  5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.  5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.    5.3        The claimant did not mention the parking period instead only mentioned time 20:25 which is not sufficient to qualify as a parking period.   Protection of Freedoms Act 2012  The notice must -  (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates; 22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim. 5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.   Interest 6.2  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for four years in order to add excessive interest. Double Recovery  7.1  The claim is littered with made-up charges. 7.2  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100. 7.3  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims. 29. Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practise continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.” 30. In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverable under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...'' 31. In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case. 7.7        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.  7.8        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).  In Conclusion  8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim. Statement of Truth I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. 
    • Scottish time bar: Scottish appeal court re-affirms the “harsh” rule (cms-lawnow.com)  
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Care / support worker - sleep-in shifts - minimum wage


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Hi there. I have been in my new job as a support worker for a well known, national care company since May of this year. I support people with physical and learning disabilities.

 

My job requires me to occasionally take "sleep-in" night shifts. The sleep-in shift begins at 22:00 and ends at 07:00, but most employees then do another full or half day shift.

 

For a sleep-in, the employee is provided with a single bedroom (which is incredibly dirty and untidy with mess/equipment everywhere I might add!) with no entertainment facilities, e.g. a TV.

 

For the duration of the sleep-in night shift, the employee is forbidden to leave the building and must be physically present, on site, at all times in case of an emergency requiring them to wake up and lend a hand to the waking night staff. The employee must clock in at the start of the sleep-in shift, as they would on any other type of shift, and of course clock out.

 

For this 9 hour shift, the payment is only a single £35.00 amount, but if the employer is called upon during the night and woken up, they are paid their standard rate of pay for each hour they are awake (which is £6.64/hour for me). In reality, 99.99% of the time, the sleep-in staff are never woken up.

 

The only part of my employment contract which specifically mentions sleep-in shifts, is the "Pay" section, which states "Your rate of pay for each sleep-in worked is £35.00. This payment is for 'on-call' services only." This equates to £3.88 per hour, for a 9 hour sleep-in night shift.

 

Subscription to Unison is an unmanageable expense at the moment, given the cost of living and my current wages, so what is the most effective way to deal with securing the minimum wage (at least!) for sleep-in shifts.

 

Any advice is very welcome. Thanks for reading.

Edited by blackfriar
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basically you are being paid a retaining fee so it doesnt count towards your working time. As you point out, if you are needed you get paid.

I would be enquiring as to whether it is considered earnings or not as you might be able to avoid paying NI contributions on the money.

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basically you are being paid a retaining fee so it doesnt count towards your working time. As you point out, if you are needed you get paid.

I would be enquiring as to whether it is considered earnings or not as you might be able to avoid paying NI contributions on the money.

 

As I understand the current legal situation, I am entitled to earn the minimum wage for the sleep-in shift as I am a) on a shift at work b) required to be present, in the same way Firefighter is required to be present at the Station overnight, for example. I'm basing this on recent Judgements by the Employment Appeal Tribunal - e.g. 8th May 2014 MIDDLE WEST RESIDENTIAL CARE HOME v SLAVIKOVSKA.

 

In light of this, how should I go about getting the minimum wage from my employer for these sleep-in shifts?

Edited by blackfriar
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her case was that someone of her qualifications was legally obliged to be present (ie working or available) so it didnt matter if she slept or worked.

In your case is it a statutory or regulatory requirement to have someone (you) present? If so then you are entitled to the minimum wage (at least). If not then the water is much muddier but generally not considered part of working time.

I would be quoting the EAT reasoning for their decision and say that you want the minimum wage for the entire time you are present should the circumstance demand.

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Another thought - being quite a naive person, and entirely new to shift work, on my first day of employment with the company I signed a form to "Opt out" of the Working Time Directive regulations. However, the senior employee who was guiding the signing of the documents very casually described this form as "something you just need to sign if you want to do more than 48 hours overtime per week... everyone signs it" (overtime comes with the territory in the care industry - this much I knew beforehand!) This was presented to me in the middle of signing what felt like a hundred other documents and was given the impression of having no significantly detrimental effect to my rights.

 

This is not an excuse for my ignorance at the time, though, and I can accept that now. I was given ample opportunity to read through every word (of what was a very, very long and wordy document!)

 

It's quite a difficult problem, as I don't know If I would make a case for NMW or WTD, or both. What I do know is:

a) the 9 hours sleep-in constitutes a significant part of my contracted 35 hours of weekly work, and it is not considered overtime or extra

b) I am paid just £35.00 this time spent at work (equaling an average hourly rate of £3.88)

c) I am required to be on site for the whole duration, and would be disciplined by my employer if I left the premises for even a minute

d) My job is to safeguard the service users, and I have completed training which is required for me to do my job (for example, Moving and Handling training to use potentially dangerous hoist equipment, and Physical Intervention training to safely and justifiably touch someone in a restrictive manner) and-

e) -this training clearly separates me from a brand new, untrained employee or someone "off the street" who would be unable to safeguard the service users AND also comply with regulations at the same time.

 

Thanks for your help so far, ericsbrother. I'm trying to get my head around my position before I get into any confrontations at work, as I'm sure you can appreciate!

Edited by blackfriar
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As I understand the current legal situation, I am entitled to earn the minimum wage for the sleep-in shift as I am a) on a shift at work b) required to be present, in the same way Firefighter is required to be present at the Station overnight, for example. ?

 

Over half of the fire service is retained ( called via pager)

When I was in the service I got paid £1800 per year to be on call for 120 hours a week!

Then was paid extra for calls/hours worked

If i have helped in any way hit my star.

any advice given is based on experience and learnt from this site :-)

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on my first day of employment with the company I signed a form to "Opt out" of the Working Time Directive regulations. However, the senior employee who was guiding the signing of the documents very casually described this form as "something you just need to sign if you want to do more than 48 hours overtime per week... everyone signs it"

 

Not "everyone signs it". If you do not wish to work more than 48 hours per week, you can write to the employer withdrawing from the WTD opt-out. However, before you start making waves, how long have you worked for this company ?

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Not "everyone signs it". If you do not wish to work more than 48 hours per week, you can write to the employer withdrawing from the WTD opt-out. However, before you start making waves, how long have you worked for this company ?

 

That's interesting. I've worked for them since the start of May, and have done 1 or 2 "sleep in" shifts per week since then. My partner also works for the same company, at the same site, and is also required to take sleep in shifts. That's 2 to 4 nights per week we sleep in separate beds, which would not be so much of a problem if we were being paid fairly for our time.

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Over half of the fire service is retained ( called via pager)

When I was in the service I got paid £1800 per year to be on call for 120 hours a week!

Then was paid extra for calls/hours worked

 

I realised that was not the best comparison immediately after I typed it :)

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That's interesting. I've worked for them since the start of May, and have done 1 or 2 "sleep in" shifts per week since then. My partner also works for the same company, at the same site, and is also required to take sleep in shifts. That's 2 to 4 nights per week we sleep in separate beds, which would not be so much of a problem if we were being paid fairly for our time.

 

But you are being paid to sleep.

 

If this kind of job doesn't suit your relationship, you need to change your job or your relationship....

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Hi,

I suggest you start looking for another job. As soon as you raise this issue, they will probably get shot of you.

 

ACAS do a great FAQ on the minimum wage and it is they who you should contact if you want more info.

 

A friend of mine is in a similar situation. She is a carer but her area is so wide that for every 8 hours she is actually working, she only gets paid for 3 hours as the company does not pay travelling time and only gives 12p per mile fuel allowance after the first 25 miles per week.

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But you are being paid to sleep.

 

If this kind of job doesn't suit your relationship, you need to change your job or your relationship....

 

I disagree with that. I am being paid £35.00 to be physically present on site for 9 hours at night. I am not being paid to simply "sleep" and the employer doesn't care if I sleep, or remain awake in the bedroom all night long.

 

If I were allowed to wander off site and go into town for a coffee, I could accept that argument. As I said, my partner are happy to perform sleep-in shifts but we want to be paid fairly for our time at work.

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Hi there. I have been in my new job as a support worker for a well known, national care company since May of this year. I support people with physical and learning disabilities.

 

My job requires me to occasionally take "sleep-in" night shifts. The sleep-in shift begins at 22:00 and ends at 07:00, but most employees then do another full or half day shift.

 

For a sleep-in, the employee is provided with a single bedroom (which is incredibly dirty and untidy with mess/equipment everywhere I might add!) with no entertainment facilities, e.g. a TV.

 

For the duration of the sleep-in night shift, the employee is forbidden to leave the building and must be physically present, on site, at all times in case of an emergency requiring them to wake up and lend a hand to the waking night staff. The employee must clock in at the start of the sleep-in shift, as they would on any other type of shift, and of course clock out.

 

For this 9 hour shift, the payment is only a single £35.00 amount, but if the employer is called upon during the night and woken up, they are paid their standard rate of pay for each hour they are awake (which is £6.64/hour for me). In reality, 99.99% of the time, the sleep-in staff are never woken up.

 

The only part of my employment contract which specifically mentions sleep-in shifts, is the "Pay" section, which states "Your rate of pay for each sleep-in worked is £35.00. This payment is for 'on-call' services only." This equates to £3.88 per hour, for a 9 hour sleep-in night shift.

 

Subscription to Unison is an unmanageable expense at the moment, given the cost of living and my current wages, so what is the most effective way to deal with securing the minimum wage (at least!) for sleep-in shifts.

 

Any advice is very welcome. Thanks for reading.

 

£5.00 more than my O.Hs rate when she did it! couple of years ago, there was a case when a chap took a company to court as he was told that is the only way to get it sorted, - he did and it cost a company fair amount of backpay/cost but sets no precedence it seems.

:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:
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https://www.gov.uk/minimum-wage-different-types-work/overview

 

What counts as working time?

 

Don’t include time spent:

not working but at the workplace or available for work at or near the workplace during a time when workers are allowed to sleep (and you provide a place to sleep)

 

 

http://www.pureemploymentlaw.co.uk/nmw-issues-travel-time-and-sleep-ins/

 

"When it comes to sleep ins, if a worker sleeps at or near a place of work, this is only treated as ‘time work’ for NMW when the worker is awake for the purpose of working. Employers who require staff to do sleep ins have often relied upon this to pay an employee a 'sleep in' allowance rather than an hourly rate whilst they are doing a sleep in shift. The case of Smith v Oxfordshire Learning Disability Trust (2009) found that a sleep in allowance could be taken into account when calculating average hourly pay over a pay reference period.

 

However, there is a developing line of case law that has shown that whether NMW is payable during sleep ins may depend on why the worker is present, and that Tribunals need to carefully consider this point. For example, in the case of Scottbridge Construction v Wright (2003) the worker in question was a nightwatchman, and the Court of Session found that his job was to be present (whether awake or asleep) and therefore he was entitled to be paid at least NMW for his entire shift.

 

A similar decision was reached in Middle West Residential Care Home v Slavisovka (2014), where the worker was required to be present to satisfy relevant regulations, as covered in our previous article here. Further, in the case of Whittlestone v BJP Home Support (2014) a carer was required to be present at a residence in order to safeguard 3 disabled service users during the night, she was found to have been entitled to NMW for her sleep in hours regardless of the fact that she had never, in practice, been called upon during those hours. (Mrs Whittlestone had also brought a claim in relation to NMW for her travel time between appointments, which also succeeded)."

 

Unless you wish to engage a lawyer and become a test case there is some way to go before there is total clarity on this point. You also say there are night shift staff on hand already? So yo may not be required to meet min. regs.

 

THerefore again; new job or new relationship!

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Yes, I'm quite clear about the case law examples now. Basically, if you do a job which requires you to be present on site and you have a continued responsibility to remain on site, then this is covered by the WTD regs. I'm just not sure whether it is best to directly approach my management about this (a few people have warned against that here - thanks and duly noted) or invest the money in a Unison subscription and go that route.

 

Neither my partner nor my job will be tossed aside, but thanks for your advice Emmzzi :)

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I think you missed the point. It may or may not be covered, there are a lot of variables.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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It is my understanding that if you are paid at a rate higher than the NMW and then get £35 per shift on sleepover then if the average of the two rates still keeps you above the NMW then there would be little you could do.

 

Conversely if the two totals end up with a wage below the NMW they you 'may' have cause.

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The critical thing about whether the hours are covered by a statutory or regulatory requirement and this will depend upon the job. For example, an only nurse in a nursing home would have to be paid in full but not a care assistant if other staff that are prescribed as being necessay are there. It is not just about whether your employer says you cannot leave the site, it is about whether the law says that you must be present and there is a big difference, even if the end result is the same for you regarding your duties.

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