Benefit Fraud Help/Information required.

[neword]

Please do not judge me but I have cheated the benefit system.

 

On Monday of this week (28/04/2014) I received a letter which has requested that I attend an interview at my local Job Center concerning "an investigation into alleged criminal offences in relation to a claim to benefits"

 

The letter does not give any further information other that I might want to have some legal representative there with me and that I should notify them that I will be attending.

This I have done and have arranged for a legal representative as well to be there.

 

A little background concerning what led to this situation.

 

I have been on JSA for about 9-10 years and during that time I have done everything that the job centre as asked of me gone on courses both voluntary and mandatory, Been on the Work programme and finished it. Applied for numerous positions and showed them I was trying hard to get employment. But, at the end of it all I still was unemployed.

All through this time (except for a three year break) I have kept an hobby of mine going and even tried to turn it into a business using a employment run test trading scheme that allowed you to start up a business whilst still receiving benefits.

 

Business initiative (BI) were the people who oversaw the scheme. However during the test period BI did something which completely upset me to the point that I quit the scheme and did not touch my hobby again for three years.

 

Moving on :-

 

My wife is disabled with a variety of conditions (osteoporosis, Irritable Bowel Syndrome + others) and we have never had any Benefit for her except for DLA High rate Mobility) they never let us have the Care component. Anyway she developed another problem about 12 months ago and in receiving a prescribe drug for that to keep it under control as there's currently no cure for it. Something to do with the three main nerves in the face becoming inflamed and this causes severe pain in the head and neck. Even forgetting her tablets for one day means it takes about 10 days to get it back under control again.

 

Anyway to keep it short

 

Because I did not want her to be on her own in the house if I was lucky enough to finally get a job I did something silly and started my hobby again. However, due to the bedroom tax money had become rather tight and so I sold some of my things I had created to pay for my hobby and not have to use any money coming in from benefits as these were needed to pay for our normal day to day living.

 

The problem is that the hobby grew beyond just a few £'s per week and grew to about £50+ after all the costs involved were taken off. This money I reinvested in better equipment and materials for the hobby. None of it was ever used for day to day living.

 

I did not tell the JSA about this but discussed the possibility with them of getting onto a scheme they were now running whereby you received a proportion of the benefits you used to get for about 26 weeks and during that time you traded. We even went as far as getting me with a Enterprise Support Agency who would look over a business plan I was creating and make sure it was viable. However, the name Business Initiative came up as the people who would oversee my business progress and it was alarm bells instantly. As previously mentioned I had had a bad time with them and I just did not want them anyway near me again.

 

The hobby(business) kept growing and the calculations showed that I was now at a point that with Working Tax credits and the income I was generating I could finally get off JSA and made the decision to go self employed as I did not want to waste all the effort I had put into it.

 

The irony is that on the very morning I was going to sign off, get registered for self employment with the tax office and contact my housing association the above mentioned letter came and it completely put everything into jeopardy.

 

So, here I am asking for any advice concerning what I should do now.

I know I should not have done it but I only really did it with the intention of being there for my wife and to finally follow a dream I had had since I was a boy of running a business in an occupation I love.

 

Please advise and I will answer any questions you may have (except what the actual business would be).

 

Oh and I forgot to say that I have no criminal record at all, This would be my first offence if it did go to court.

Edited May 3, 2014 by neword
Missed last line of post off.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. We're not here to judge; if you feel anyone is going OTT in their judgement of you, hit the black triangle at the bottom left of their post and report it to the site team.

 

The forum guys should be along over the course of the day with advice for you. Weekends are always quieter here, especially bank holiday ones and not everyone knows about benefit fraud. If you have time, you can read around the forum for similar cases, as they crop up regularly.

 

You've done the right thing getting legal representation, is this person experienced in benefit matters? I'm also wondering if it would be worth having a word with a Welfare Rights adviser to check what benefits you were/are entitled to. I would want to know if the DWP figures are right, if they come up with some, and you never know, they might come up with something you could have claimed. I hope someone with more experience than me will confirm if that's a good idea or not.

 

My best, HB

[estellyn]

My advice would be go the interview with all the figures of your earnings and when you were working. Come completely clean with the investigator. If you have a disability premium on your claim (due to your wife's DLA) then the first £20 of earnings per week will be disregarded. The other issue will be whether you still met the work conditions for JSA - were you available for and actively seeking work? If you were meeting your requirements from the jobcentre and still applying for jobs and would have taken a job if you were successful, then I would argue that you met those conditions and were pursuing your business in your spare time.

 

 

If you are open, honest and co-operative then the investigation is more likely to go easier for you and will go better with the judge if you are prosecuted. I'm not sure how it is now, but it always used to be that those who co-operated and were honest during investigation, if they had a low enough overpayment (at that time below £2000, not sure if that stands now), would be spared prosecution.

 

 

Continue with the plans for your business, sign off, claim tax credits etc, don't let what's happening stop you in starting your business.

[neword]

Hello there and thank you both for replying.

 

estellyn: You mentioned a few things in your reply that I would like some further information about if you could help me with them.

[1] I do not know what sort of figure they have with regards to what they think I have claimed so am in the dark there, what I would like to know is

do they base their figures on the weekly amount I am getting and would that be adjusted downwards to take into account the £20 I could have earned

without suffering any loss of the JSA payment.

[2] lets say that the money I have been getting from the hobby business was £200 before costs and about £91 after costs (not taking anything for "wages")

would they readjust the overpayment and base it on the £91 (profit) or will they just use the net earnings of £200?

 

As to being available for a job I have always made it clear I would take ANY job offered me, and have always exceeded the Job Search requirements that I had agreed to when signing on. I did most of the work for the business/hobby between the hours of 4am to 7am and 7pm to 10pm. This left me clear during the hours of 9am-5pm to concentrate on getting a job.

I have always risen early (way of life for me) and even after losing my Job I continue to do so.

 

You said that I should continue with my plans to go self employed but surely while this is going on I should stay unemployed due to the fact I can claim Legal aid.

I must admit I have very limited knowledge of the legal aid system so do not know if it is based on income, saving or anything for that matter.

Could anyone enlighten me with respect to this.

 

I honestly could do with as much information as possible in the next two days as my Interview" is on Tuesday 6th May.

[estellyn]

1) What they will start by doing, following full receipt of the details of your earnings is to work out your overpayment, and yes, £20 each week should be allowed before taking your net earnings into account.

 

 

2) they take into account your net earnings, so be sure to have all the figures to hand of costs - be sure you have taken into account any allowable costs for working from home.

 

 

So if your net profit after costs was £91 for one week, the first £20 would be allowed and then £71 of your JSA for that week would be an overpayment - does that make sense? As long as you still retain some income based JSA each week, your housing benefit should not be affected.

 

 

Legal aid is based on income and capital. If you're on a low income with no or low capital then you should qualify.

 

 

Be aware that if your JSA has not been suspended yet, it probably will be once you declare you have been working. Having another way to earn income is a good idea. Also if you can qualify for working tax credit you will likely be better off than on JSA. You will of course need to inform the housing benefit section, but my understanding is that if you are working 16 hours or more a week you will no longer be subject to bedroom tax.

[neword]

Hello there,

 

estellyn, Thank you for the reply, it is appreciated.

 

Although I sort of ground to a complete stop once the letter came and basically have not done anything other than try to work out my "profits" after all costs it does look as if its going to be a bit painful. It looks like I made somewhere in the region of £55 a week (average) after all costs inclusive of the allowance of £20. So I could possibly be looking at something between 1.8k and 2.5k overpayment dependent on what they have worked out themselves.

If it is in this region it looks like I will be throwing myself at their mercy and asking to be given a chance to repay it (over time). Of course they will also give me a caution/warning etc which I really would not mind. I made the stupid mistake am prepared to take the punishment they give me.

 

One question

If I do end up getting cautioned/warned would this have any effect on trying to get WTcredit. I really want to do this as it's a dream I have had for a long long time and this would probably be my last chance of every doing it.

 

Oh forgot to ask

If this ends up being a overpayment on Tuesday is it likely that the whole matter could be resolved that day or is this going to be a long drawn out process.

 

Thanks for any advice.

[estellyn]

No, it will not resolved on Tuesday. All the info goes to a decision maker who combs through everything and decides on the overpayment. You may have to further interview under caution. Eventually a decision will also be made on whether to offer you a caution or go for prosecution.

 

 

No there won't be any effect on your working tax credit claim yet. I'm not sure if a sanction can be applied as part of a conviction or caution, I know there was something I read about the possibility of a 4 week sanction for a caution and up to 13 weeks for a conviction - but you'd need to hear from someone more experienced with current penalties as to whether this is frequently applied.

 

 

This will be a long process. It's best to try to get on with your life, including your business in the meantime rather than putting everything on hold - you won't be doing yourself any good.

[neword]

estellyn : thank you for your advice yet again, I do appreciate it.

 

If I have read right on these forums the decision could take a long time (6 months or more I think I read) and to be honest if I stay away from the business I was going to start I am going to lose out in more ways than one. It has taken me some time to get to the point where income from business hit my viable self employment figure but it got there and if I do not carry it on it's going to take time to get back to that figure again.

Also, if I wait for a possible outcome(decision) and it does take 6 months I am going to miss the busy Christmas trade period which can make a lot of difference .

 

So, looks like it's self employment for me very shortly and actually would be far more beneficial if I did has it would free up a considerable amount of time each week that I used to use doing Job Search etc. So this time would go into extra production thereby giving me both the chance to store some finished products for the main sales periods and also increase sales in the meantime as well.

 

So yes self employment is certainly on it's way. You never know this may just be one of the best things that has happened and the kick in the rear it's given me will make me get moving and become more serious towards what I want.

 

Thank you

 

I will upload posts concerning what happens at the interview so that if anyone else finds themselves in this situation they will have an idea of what to expect.

[jadeybags]

Go for the self employment. Legal aid will still be possible based on your income. Your income is after expenses. You'll get rid of the bedroom tax if you're working too.

It's hard slog being self employed, I can see why you want to do it, but be prepared for stressing about earning enough. My benefits are based on me earning £100 a week. Some weeks I struggle with that & get stressy, other weeks I go over that, & get stressy lol I really miss a set income personally.

A friend of mine in the same business as me was hauled in for the IUC when she was on income support, because of the 'hobby' & she was told she needed to register self employed etc. So did.

At the moment we can be self employed, but once the Universal credit kicks in, they will be basing our income on minimum wage for I think 35 hours a week, which means they will be assuming I earn about £230 a week & basing benefits on that? Well, ummmmmm, I wish lol

[neword]

Hello Jadeybags, Thank you for your input.

 

Can I ask how I am going to get rid of the bedroom tax if I go self employed and have two spare bedrooms in my housing association property. I am looking into this at the moment but have not found anything concerning self employment and bedroom tax..

 

Actually the stress of earning enough would not bother me to much compared to the stress I have experienced in the last 8 days. In fact I think I would definitely welcome it.

[estellyn]

As long as you're working over 16 hours a week, bedroom tax does not apply - you just inform the HB office of your change of circs and the bedroom tax element will be removed once the change is processed. You will need to complete a form regarding self employment for your HB change of circumstances, and during the claim will need to keep them regularly updated with regards to earnings.

 

 

How did the interview go today?

[neword]

The Interview....

 

I had pre arranged legal representation in advance of it and he turned up just before the interview was to take place. We had a very quick word in which he basically said say nothing while we wait.

Interview time came and went and it was about 12 minutes late in starting. My name was called by one of the actual interviewer's and he was very pleasant.

The legal I had and he then went off to a room and they talked for about 10 minutes during which my legal was briefed on the charges and the evidence they had.

 

10 mins later they he interviewer came back and asked me to go to the room where my legal was. I was then allowed to discuss things privately with the legal and was given advice from him.

They had found out that over a period of two years I had been selling items I had made. The legal said that this covered the last two years and they had nothing to go on for any period before that.

He told me not to say anything concerning the time when they did not have any evidence. He also stressed not to offer additional information they did not ask for. Also that should they try to get you to talk about what you did in the period before they have evidence.

 

After the briefing session with the legal he called them in and the interview started.

 

The two interviewers I got were one from the DWP and the other from the local council HB dept. Both were pleasant (whether this was to try and lull you into a sense of opening up a little I do not know) so be on your guard here.

 

The first part was all about the procedures, the tape machine because it was recorded. Then the actual interview started properly,

 

They presented their evidence with intermittent questions where you either confirmed or denied what it was. In my case I basically confirmed the evidence was correct because I wanted it all out in the open. But I was very careful when it came to the times before the two years they had and made sure that they knew that in that period I had not sold anything (which was true).

 

They went on about other possible sales outlets but I had concentrated on just this one way of selling so just told them I did not sell anywhere else. When they asked me why I told them that the method of selling I was using was convenient and provided a slightly better return per sale than using other methods. I explained the difference between the way I was using to sell and other types of sales outlet.

 

Anyway the interview continued with the HB man asking me to confirm certain forms I had made declarations on during the period.

 

Eventually came back to the sales I had made and they said the evidence showed that over a two year period I had made sales amounting to 11k. This is when I opened up my own evidence which I had produced in the waiting week since I had the letter. My own net sale figures effectively confirmed the figures they had so they knew I was coming clean.

 

Anyway by the time the interview was over I had admitted everything and hopefully had not forgot anything (but that's is actually a fairly easy thing to do when you are stressed out). The interviewers seemed to be very understanding and by the end of the interview they where nodding and smiling while I was talking. and it was that sort of nod and smile which seemed to show that they understood that I only did what I did so I could follow my lifelong dream.

 

Anyway once the tape machine had been turned off we had a sort of formal chat where we talked about what would happen next. Basically they will report back to someone else who will make a decision concerning the course of action to take. This is currently about 6-10 weeks due to backlog of cases.

 

AT the very end one of the interviews asked what I was going to do as I had mentioned that I had been thinking of signing off and I basically told them I just don't know now as I have not created anything since the letter came and didn't know really what to do now. He did say he had actually seen my stuff and he thought that they where really beautiful.

 

Anyway at the very end we actually shook hands and I made an apology again saying how I had been so stupid and allowed my dream to take control and I think they knew I meant it because I had tears in my eyes when I said it. He also told me to send in any costings evidence to him and he will pass it on to the person who will make the decision. So that's what I am going to be doing for the next two days. Having done a very quick recalculation of my costings concerning looks like the overpayment is going to be in the region of 3-3.5k if they accept my figures. Looks very much like a court case if that figure turns out to be correct.

 

When me and my legal representative left we walked through the town and I said "well I made a right mess of that interview" to which he replied "no, he thought it was a great interview"

 

So it's a case of wait and see now.

[estellyn]

Sounds like you did really well in the interview, stayed calm and got the information across. It is now very important that you get your costs figures to the decision maker asap with any proof, otherwise you will end up with a much bigger overpayment.

 

 

Also remember that when the overpayment comes, if they haven't properly calculated it or properly taken your costs into account then you should appeal the decision. Appealing won't have any effect on the decision on whether or not to prosecute.

[neword]

Update:

 

Today I became self employed... well nearly....

 

Went local tax office today and registered for s/e ..yippee....absolutely straight forward, full of help and knew what they were doing.

 

Went for my normal signing straight after and saw my normal js advisor, she was filling out a new signing sheet and I said "oh I don't think you need that as I am signing off"

I then handed her the little green book anyone on Jsa etc has and said I need to have this filled in correctly. She said oh you sign off online now" and proceeded to open the little green book to show me the number.

Guess what... No Number in there. "do you have another newer book" she asked and said" No, that's the only one you gave me since when I came off WP"

Anyway she toddled off and got a sticker with the number on and told me to ring that number. Didn't ask if I had done any work (as usual) and never offered the signing on form to me either.

 

So off I go after shaking her hand...no matter what I have done I am still polite and don't hold a grudge.

 

Anyway, Get back home and ring the number, Got through almost instantly (amazed) and proceeded to go through the signing off process with the person on the other end.

After awhile we got to a part where she said "I am now going to read you a declaration", I said "what for" and she said so that you can confirm that you have not worked in the previous fortnight. I interrupted her and said " I need to declare some earnings" to which she answered " why did the JC not take this information off you" and I replied "because they never asked for it).

She then gave me yet another number to call where I could tell them about the earnings.

 

So I called that. Got through almost instantly (double amazed now) and proceeded to tell the person on the other end what I was trying to do and how I ended up there.

 

Eventually, I ended up with an appointment to go back to the JC on Monday with the figures. And there was me thinking I would most likely never have to climb the steps in that building ever again.

 

So now I have been set back another 3 days because correct procedures have not been followed...and I will have to wait till at least Friday next week for my payment.

 

Oh well

 

So my advice if you are considering Self employment and you need to declare any earnings before signing off, make sure they take the figures off you before you get headed in the direction of the front door.

[neword]

Hello everyone,

 

It's been like 17 weeks since I had my interview under caution and today I have received a letter from the DWP concerning the matter.

 

It basically says I have a over-payment of approx £3200 and that the process of recovery has been put into the hands of their debt management team.

 

I have been onto them already and offered to repay at the rate of £100 per month via Direct Debit and they took the details necessary to do it.

 

My question is...

 

As long as I make the repayments is this basically the end of the matter or is there a possibility that there's a sting in the tail lurking to rear it's head sometime in the future?

 

It's just I do not want to go to the next level with my self employment to find all the hard work I will have to put in be wasted by then deciding at a later date that they want to take it to court.

 

Any answers appreciated.

[Mr.P]

Although overpayment recovery and criminal prosecutions are two separate processes, the fact that they have passed the file over to the debt recovery team is a good sign. It is unlikely that the DWP would press ahead with a court case for such a small amount - They have plenty of bigger fish to chase.

[id6052]

Based upon the fact that you were interviewed under caution and the overpayment was more than £2k, there is a reasonable prospect they may decide to prosecute depending upon how strong they feel the case would be in court.

[neword]

Hmmm,

 

So I have 1 person who thinks that they may not and one that thinks they might.

 

Surely the fact I had admitted it from the start and have arranged a repayment plan with them + I did what I said I was going to do and became self employed would have them more likely not to go to court,

 

I mean what would they gain from doing so?

More public money spent to gain a result they already have

My business shut down

Me back on JSA

Me virtually unemployable due to the court case

and the overpayment repaid from the benefits I would receive

 

If they don't go to court

They save money not going to court,

I remain in business and contribute to the system

They get the money back they say I had to much

and they save as they no longer pay JSA and HB

 

I know that if I was the fraud officer making the decision in this case which of the two scenarios I would go with, (but that's me)

 

My Legal is looking into the prospects concerning the possibilities of them going to court. Hopefully by Monday night I will know more.

 

I certainly am not going to go to the next level with my business if it's going to be time and money wasted.

 

Will update further once I have more information.

[kk3852]

Very recent guidelines are that for overpayments of less than £4k that an administrative penalty will be offered unless there are compelling reasons why a person should be prosecuted. The bad news is that this is an additional 50%. This does not have to be accepted but then prosecution would follow.

[neword]

kk3852#

The letter I received concerning the overpayment does not mention anything with respect to a admin penalty nor was there anything mentioned about it when I rang and arranged the repayment plan after receiving the letter.

 

Is this something that might show up at a later date given that it is not mentioned in the letter?

 

I would not mind having to pay the additional it's just I would prefer it to be something I knew about now and not in 6 months time if you know what I mean.

[morgandlin]

Info on Admin Pens:

 

http://www.advicenow.org.uk/advicenow-guides/problems-with-benefits/how-to-handle-an-interview-under-caution/after-the-interview-under-caution-html,661,FP.html

 

Lin

[kk3852]

Hi, at this stage debt recovery are not involved in the penalty. That is dealt with by the fraud team who will only have been notified of the overpayment amount at the same time as you.

 

You should hear separately to attend another interview to see if you wish to accept the penalty or not

[tomtom256]

Just for info the policy has now changed to £4,000 before prosecution is from the outset and they will tend to adpen below this so you may get lucky.

 

This started in April this year, but has only just been rolled out to implementation stage.

 

As kk3852 stated, the customer tends to get the O/P before the fraud team do so expect a letter shortly explaining what there stance is, if you hear nothing within a few weeks give the fraud team a call.

Edited September 7, 2014 by tomtom256
typo

[neword]

OK thanks for the replies...

 

I will certainly keep this Admin in mind and have mentally adjusted myself to the fact that

given I have already set up a repayment with their debt management team that this Admin

Pen could add an addition 16 months to the repayments.

 

This I do not mind and now that I know it is a possibility and how they go about it I can now

readjust my plans accordingly and allow for that extra repayment time.

[id6052]

hi tomtom256

 

do you have link to increase from £2k to £4k (that appears really good news for neword)

 

most recent policy i can find is from March 2014 and was still quoting £2k

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/286748/fraud-guide-mar-14.pdf